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| 07:46:14 | raptor | good morning! |
| 07:54:17 | ozbitfighter | in 6 minutes it will be :) |
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| 08:14:18 | koda | o/ |
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| 08:17:40 | ozbitfighter | Anyone up for a game of teeworld? |
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| 08:24:50 | raptor | i've forgotten about teeworlds... |
| 08:25:18 | raptor | so the real question is - what can *we* learn from teeworlds that has made that game popular? |
| 08:39:35 | kaen | it reminds of a game I used play called soldat. |
| 08:39:48 | kaen | but soldat had a very different art style |
| 08:40:03 | raptor | it reminds me a little of 'liero' |
| 08:42:37 | raptor | which has morphed into OpenLieroX |
| 08:46:44 | ozbitfighter | well does bitfighter really need voip code? |
| 08:46:53 | ozbitfighter | mumble has positional audio. |
| 08:47:22 | raptor | we've discussed removing voice chat |
| 08:47:35 | raptor | there are so many better solutions now.. |
| 08:47:49 | raptor | it also has echo cancellation |
| 08:47:58 | raptor | (mumble) |
| 08:48:08 | ozbitfighter | Hmmm is soldat still popular? |
| 08:48:27 | raptor | 173 players online |
| 08:48:27 | ozbitfighter | teeworlds seem to have lots of europeans but no australians. |
| 08:48:37 | raptor | compared to us it's famous! |
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| 08:55:15 | raptor | soldat looks neat! |
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| 09:05:28 | raptor | watusimoto: was there a reason you chose boost::scoped_ptr for the PluginMenuUI object in the editor? |
| 09:05:36 | watusimoto | hi |
| 09:05:57 | raptor | hi |
| 09:06:04 | watusimoto | probably mispelled shared_ptr? |
| 09:07:43 | raptor | hmm |
| 09:08:25 | raptor | looks like it's the simplest auto-delete pointer.. |
| 09:08:52 | watusimoto | I'm not sure off the top of my head the differences btwn scoped and shared |
| 09:08:59 | watusimoto | I usually use shared |
| 09:09:09 | raptor | shared: An enhanced relative of scoped_ptr with reference counted copy semantics. |
| 09:10:59 | watusimoto | see? better than scoped! |
| 09:11:08 | raptor | so you can;t copy scoped and have tracked |
| 09:11:36 | watusimoto | to answer you question... I probably wanted shared |
| 09:12:01 | raptor | ok |
| 09:12:36 | watusimoto | what do you know about our new (?) vts display? |
| 09:12:39 | raptor | because i'm attempting this issue: https://code.google.com/p/bitfighter/issues/detail?id=179 |
| 09:12:47 | raptor | vts? |
| 09:13:01 | watusimoto | it's a new line on the f6 fps display |
| 09:13:09 | raptor | uhh |
| 09:13:13 | raptor | let me look |
| 09:13:22 | watusimoto | probably wasn't you who added it |
| 09:13:46 | watusimoto | good luck with 179! |
| 09:13:53 | watusimoto | I barely remember what I meant! |
| 09:13:53 | raptor | where did that come from?? |
| 09:14:11 | raptor | and what is vts? |
| 09:14:36 | watusimoto | I think it's vertices but don't know what vts means |
| 09:15:09 | watusimoto | I can ask kaen later... he's the next most likely suspect |
| 09:20:19 | raptor | it was kaen!: https://code.google.com/p/bitfighter/source/detail?r=e29f60911e84 |
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| 09:23:00 | raptor | and it got it into the red!: http://sam6.25u.com/upload/4screenshot_25.png |
| 09:24:26 | raptor | come on SDL2! almost here! |
| 09:24:50 | watusimoto | are't we using sdl2? |
| 09:25:01 | raptor | yes... but it's actually in RC2 right now |
| 09:25:10 | watusimoto | I need to ask him why vts is useful, and what it stands for |
| 09:25:11 | raptor | and linux distros have started packaging it! |
| 09:25:15 | watusimoto | great |
| 09:25:41 | raptor | it stands for 'vertices' |
| 09:25:51 | watusimoto | ah |
| 09:25:52 | raptor | just how many are showing on the screen |
| 09:26:03 | watusimoto | only for polywalls, I think |
| 09:26:08 | watusimoto | maybe for regular walls |
| 09:26:25 | raptor | regular walls, definitely, since that's all i used in that level in the screenshot above |
| 09:26:31 | watusimoto | I see it's a emasure of visible wall complexity, but that doesn't tell me why we need to know it |
| 09:26:44 | raptor | client-side drawing performance? |
| 09:27:06 | watusimoto | perhaps... but that is just one element of many that influence speed |
| 09:27:57 | raptor | yes - i think it may be because his machine didn't do so well with hardware accelerated opengl, and found a real slow down with rendering.. |
| 09:28:23 | raptor | ultimately, kaen will have to chime in and set the record straight.. |
| 09:29:52 | watusimoto | yes, when kaen comes online he can explain |
| 09:30:41 | raptor | :) |
| 09:30:55 | watusimoto | yes, I suspect kaen will be amused as well. |
| 09:31:04 | raptor | ok, back to converting the editor input menus to actual UI elements... |
| 09:32:38 | raptor | chumpchange played the most last week... |
| 09:32:50 | watusimoto | Good ol' chump change |
| 09:33:10 | bobdaduck | I miss playa |
| 09:33:30 | raptor | see, every time i see that word, I think "beach" |
| 09:35:39 | watusimoto | :-) |
| 09:36:55 | raptor | speaking of popularity of games - I'm finding that other more popular games seem to have a lot of international players - and that they're localized |
| 09:37:10 | raptor | i mean, the in-game text is localized |
| 09:37:25 | watusimoto | is this really a road you want to go down? |
| 09:37:30 | raptor | no of course not |
| 09:37:31 | raptor | :) |
| 09:37:34 | bobdaduck | We just have no stay factor |
| 09:37:37 | watusimoto | I don't think our popularity issues are related to language |
| 09:37:41 | raptor | I *hate* localization |
| 09:37:45 | raptor | hate hate hate |
| 09:37:47 | bobdaduck | People can get on and play but they have no incentive to actually keep playing |
| 09:37:59 | bobdaduck | bitfighter is essentially a game for lan parties and nothing else |
| 09:38:03 | watusimoto | that's part of the problem, the other is complexity |
| 09:38:06 | raptor | hi bobdaduck |
| 09:38:14 | raptor | yay lan parties - a dying breed |
| 09:38:18 | raptor | but oh so fun |
| 09:38:25 | watusimoto | and... maybe... graphics quality |
| 09:38:42 | raptor | should we go all cartoon-y like teewars? |
| 09:38:46 | watusimoto | but we're addressing those last two problems in 019, and maybe adding more badges and such will address that first point |
| 09:38:58 | watusimoto | I think our UI looks a ton better than it did |
| 09:39:06 | raptor | then we can market violence to a younger crowd! |
| 09:39:13 | raptor | yes, i agree |
| 09:40:33 | ozbitfighter | intrinsic fun. |
| 09:40:51 | ozbitfighter | I've been lurking on for the last 3 hours and haven't found any good games. |
| 09:41:33 | watusimoto | that's our single biggest problem... not enough players. sadly |
| 09:41:41 | watusimoto | it's somewhat a self-reinforcing issue |
| 09:41:48 | raptor | desura should give us a bump again when we release |
| 09:41:53 | raptor | for a couple days.. |
| 09:42:35 | bobdaduck | Players usually drops off in the summer. |
| 09:43:27 | ozbitfighter | have we tried contacting youtube screencasters? |
| 09:43:45 | watusimoto | only a couple of minor ones who found the game on their own |
| 09:43:48 | ozbitfighter | or whatever they're called. |
| 09:43:49 | ozbitfighter | machinimsas recorders. |
| 09:43:55 | watusimoto | egoists |
| 09:44:02 | watusimoto | :-) |
| 09:44:03 | ozbitfighter | haha |
| 09:44:22 | watusimoto | but yes, reaching out to some of them might be good, especially in conjunction with our next release |
| 09:44:44 | bobdaduck | Whenever that is |
| 09:45:10 | ozbitfighter | :P do we have an idea when that is? Or whenever it's done? |
| 09:45:20 | ozbitfighter | months away/years away? |
| 09:45:26 | bobdaduck | August |
| 09:45:31 | raptor | 2016 |
| 09:45:34 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 09:45:52 | bobdaduck | According to my extremely loose projections, there is a release about every 3 months. |
| 09:46:14 | raptor | watusimoto: sometime we need to tackle LuaW... |
| 09:46:32 | bobdaduck | There's a lot of things being worked on for 019 so 019 may take longer |
| 09:46:43 | bobdaduck | but its already been about a month and a half so |
| 09:47:02 | watusimoto | yes |
| 09:47:18 | bobdaduck | No wait |
| 09:47:21 | watusimoto | raptor: my parents just arrived this evening, so I'll be a little busy for a couple of days, alas |
| 09:47:22 | bobdaduck | its been three months |
| 09:47:29 | watusimoto | but absolutely yes |
| 09:47:39 | bobdaduck | lol this will be one of the longg releases. |
| 09:47:45 | bobdaduck | I'm keeping with my august estimate |
| 09:48:01 | raptor | ah parents |
| 09:48:12 | raptor | my wife's mom is in town now helping a bit with the little one.. |
| 09:48:19 | raptor | so yes, understandable |
| 09:48:28 | raptor | bobdaduck: what month is it now? |
| 09:48:48 | bobdaduck | June |
| 09:49:00 | bobdaduck | 6-18-2013 |
| 09:49:24 | bobdaduck | ...why? |
| 09:50:27 | raptor | because i wasn't sure |
| 09:51:31 | bobdaduck | YOU'RE ON A COMPUTER THERE IS A DATE STAMP IN THE LOWER RIGHT CORNER |
| 09:51:39 | bobdaduck | Or upper right corner. |
| 09:51:48 | raptor | I am thoroughly sleep-deprived, why would i remember something like that?? |
| 09:51:55 | bobdaduck | Or something. Wherever linux keeps its clocks |
| 09:51:56 | bobdaduck | xD |
| 09:53:17 | bobdaduck | Anwyay, back on subject. |
| 09:53:19 | bobdaduck | Suns! |
| 09:53:54 | raptor | so your suns shoot a phaser everyonce in a while? |
| 09:54:20 | bobdaduck | Kind of. |
| 09:54:29 | bobdaduck | I'm just using phaser as the damage source instead of bursts. |
| 09:55:04 | bobdaduck | In the "real thing" it wouldn't show any sort of bullet animation. |
| 09:55:23 | bobdaduck | You just start taking slow constant damage whenever you're in the suns burning range |
| 09:55:48 | raptor | and are they still using that ugly gravity well code of mine? |
| 09:56:24 | raptor | bobdaduck: check the in-game high scores |
| 09:56:35 | bobdaduck | No I coded the gravity well code myself. |
| 09:56:39 | kaen | raptor, watusimoto, I thought it would be useful to have display of the visible verts for level editing, because while verts are normally not significant to performance, it's possible to have several thousand on the screen when manipulating the barriers with the plugins I wrote |
| 09:56:40 | bobdaduck | ...Modeled after yours. |
| 09:56:42 | bobdaduck | So yes. |
| 09:57:00 | raptor | well good - yours is probably loads better since you actually care.. |
| 09:57:00 | kaen | but as you've noticed the algorithm is slow, inaccurate, and incomplete :) |
| 09:57:19 | watusimoto | so it was designed for editor use? |
| 09:57:21 | raptor | hi kaen |
| 09:57:23 | kaen | yes |
| 09:57:24 | kaen | hello. |
| 09:57:37 | kaen | but mostly while play testing |
| 09:58:03 | kaen | I think I made it change colors to red when you have "a lot" of visible wall verts |
| 09:58:12 | watusimoto | yes, you did |
| 09:58:17 | bobdaduck | Nah raptor mine is pretty much exactly the same |
| 09:58:34 | bobdaduck | I think changing colors to red is a good idea in general.... |
| 09:58:43 | kaen | I wouldn't be heart broken if you want to take it out |
| 09:58:45 | bobdaduck | FPS, ms, energy, ship health... |
| 09:59:52 | watusimoto | e |
| 10:05:47 | raptor | boost is a beast |
| 10:06:49 | bobdaduck | boost is? |
| 10:07:47 | bobdaduck | a "within zone constraints" function would be really nice for lua... |
| 10:07:59 | raptor | what does that mean? |
| 10:08:12 | bobdaduck | Gets zones dimensions and tests if whatever is within that. |
| 10:08:30 | raptor | oh, a pointInPolygon method? |
| 10:08:36 | bobdaduck | uh, sure. |
| 10:08:49 | ozbitfighter | For BBB i knew there was prizes but i didn't know if anyone won them |
| 10:09:02 | raptor | they get to be on the high scores list! |
| 10:09:03 | bobdaduck | I got BBB silver |
| 10:09:08 | ozbitfighter | hmmm that doesn't make sense. unless it was based ons tatists other then top 10. |
| 10:09:13 | ozbitfighter | top 3. |
| 10:09:30 | raptor | you get a badge |
| 10:09:32 | ozbitfighter | wasn't there a gaming mouse or amazon vouchers? |
| 10:09:44 | bobdaduck | like just something so that I don't have to write, and I quote, |
| 10:09:44 | ozbitfighter | at one stage. whatever happened to reddit? |
| 10:09:46 | raptor | because I'm too cheap |
| 10:09:56 | bobdaduck | if(itemLoc.x < 1275 and itemLoc.x > 765) then |
| 10:09:56 | bobdaduck | if(itemLoc.y < -2040 and itemLoc.y > -2550) then |
| 10:10:25 | bobdaduck | The guy who used to give out prizes that are real like mouse and stuff has disappeared. |
| 10:10:46 | raptor | he showed up for a day about 2 months ago, didn't he? |
| 10:11:14 | bobdaduck | He made two posts in the "off topic" section of the forums. |
| 10:11:19 | bobdaduck | I'm not sure that counts. |
| 10:11:20 | raptor | ha |
| 10:11:29 | ozbitfighter | Hmmm there's a steam bitfighter group. |
| 10:11:35 | bobdaduck | Yeah |
| 10:11:43 | bobdaduck | And bitfighter is on G+, twitter, and facebook |
| 10:17:26 | bobdaduck | what is the radius of a ship? |
| 10:17:32 | raptor | 24 |
| 10:18:05 | bobdaduck | Huh. |
| 10:22:56 | watusimoto | I'm taking off... this client will be on all night, so look for the other me to find me! |
| 10:23:44 | raptor | heh, ok |
| 10:23:46 | raptor | bye |
| 10:24:32 | watusimoto | I'm going to install the new Mint tomorrow, and, well, I have to back everything up because mint "suggests" a clean install every time |
| 10:24:39 | watusimoto | awesome, that |
| 10:25:18 | raptor | enjoy getting your sleep function to work! |
| 10:25:21 | raptor | (again) |
| 10:25:42 | watusimoto | and maybe sound will start working again |
| 10:25:57 | watusimoto | I've found that mint tends to degrade over time |
| 10:26:12 | watusimoto | a fresh install every year or so seems to fix things, for a while |
| 10:26:21 | watusimoto | well, here's to hope! |
| 10:26:21 | raptor | sounds like windows ! |
| 10:26:32 | watusimoto | windows is rather more stable, I've found |
| 10:26:37 | watusimoto | say what you will about it |
| 10:26:43 | raptor | sorry.. windows xp... |
| 10:26:55 | watusimoto | ok, latersville |
| 10:26:57 | raptor | bye |
| 10:27:09 | raptor | windows 7 has been impressively stable |
| 10:43:02 | ozbitfighter | is my netbook really that bad that idling on the chat screen takes up 25% cpu? |
| 10:43:13 | ozbitfighter | master server hat screen. |
| 10:43:21 | ozbitfighter | no 30% |
| 10:44:16 | ozbitfighter | nvm there's more important things to worry about. |
| 10:48:24 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 10:51:17 | raptor | 019 is more performant |
| 10:52:57 | bobdaduck | From a strict CPU usage perspective, perhaps... |
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| 11:05:37 | kaen | no, it's also more performant on the gpu as well |
| 11:11:25 | | kaen Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 11:20:46 | ozbitfighter | what do you mean by performant? |
| 11:20:52 | ozbitfighter | 019 hasmore performance? |
| 11:20:58 | ozbitfighter | orrequiresmore performance? |
| 11:22:04 | bobdaduck | Performs better |
| 11:22:09 | bobdaduck | less cpu usage etc |
| 11:29:47 | kaen | "Virtual Server Control Status: Unavailable" |
| 11:29:49 | kaen | oh good |
| 11:30:05 | kaen | not only is my server down, the control panel for it is down too |
| 11:40:26 | ozbitfighter | Hmmm that's a provider issue isn'tit. |
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| 12:21:14 | kaen | running xp in virtualware reminds me of how scientists study deadly viruses in biohazard glove boxes |
| 12:21:30 | raptor | that's how I feel about OSX! |
| 12:21:46 | raptor | i'm glad VM exists to prevent infection.. |
| 12:44:52 | raptor | OOOOOOO |
| 12:45:00 | raptor | http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_40_0/tools/bcp/bcp.html |
| 12:45:22 | raptor | that means... we can extract shared_ptr just for our use.. |
| 12:46:06 | raptor | oh wait, maybe it doesn't do what I hoped it would do... |
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| 13:22:06 | | -JonathanD- Hey Freenode, Fosscon is coming up Saturday August 10th. Fosscon has it's roots right here on freenode, and has been growing for 4 years now. Check it out over at http://fosscon.org, and check out a few of the speakers for this year at http://fosscon.org/speakers |
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| 14:23:27 | kaen | not only is my server down, the control panel for it is down too |
| 14:23:38 | raptor | oh lovely |
| 14:26:51 | bobdaduck | Have you complained to management? |
| 14:33:37 | raptor | i think we should sort servers by player count... |
| 14:33:47 | raptor | like in teeworlds |
| 14:34:19 | kaen | yes! |
| 14:34:26 | kaen | I even posted an issue about it... |
| 14:34:56 | kaen | actually I think we should just show servers with >0 players sorted above empty servers |
| 14:35:02 | kaen | and then sort the nonempty servers by ping |
| 14:35:34 | kaen | https://code.google.com/p/bitfighter/issues/detail?id=193 |
| 14:36:34 | kaen | also it turns out that my host was compromised this morning and all of the nodes had their data wiped... |
| 14:36:56 | kaen | I'm praying the automatic backups are recent enough to have the buildbot stuff... |
| 14:38:41 | bobdaduck | oooh |
| 14:38:44 | bobdaduck | man I'll pray with you |
| 14:42:48 | raptor | ok, so i just got kicked from teeworlds |
| 14:42:52 | raptor | vote kicked |
| 14:43:11 | raptor | i thought it was a deathmatch... |
| 14:44:10 | raptor | but somehow i got 7 people to vote yes to kick me |
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| 14:45:22 | raptor | huh... looking at the chat log.. it seems one player said no killing.. |
| 14:45:33 | raptor | so i guess i broke that, but i had no idea |
| 14:48:11 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 14:48:24 | raptor | but it was the most popular server |
| 14:48:29 | bobdaduck | xD |
| 14:48:36 | raptor | i shoudl go play OpenLieroX again... |
| 14:48:46 | bobdaduck | OpenLieroX? |
| 14:48:53 | raptor | oh man |
| 14:48:54 | raptor | so... |
| 14:48:56 | raptor | nostalgia |
| 14:49:10 | | koda is now known as darkoda |
| 14:49:15 | raptor | there was this old DOS game called 'Liero' which was basically real-time deathmatch worms |
| 14:49:20 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 14:49:32 | raptor | and my brother and I would play it for hours on end - it was hilarious |
| 14:49:49 | raptor | and over the years it has morphed into a networked version called OpenLieroX |
| 14:49:55 | bobdaduck | Sounds pretty fun |
| 14:50:16 | raptor | let me install it again... |
| 14:52:44 | raptor | haha |
| 14:52:50 | raptor | blood amount is set to 100% |
| 14:52:57 | raptor | but it goes up to 5000 |
| 14:56:04 | bobdaduck | rofl |
| 14:58:21 | bobdaduck | Should I take a look at it when I get home? |
| 15:00:55 | raptor | well i used to think it was fun with two people at the same computer |
| 15:01:17 | raptor | but it looks like the online player count looks like ours now :( |
| 15:05:36 | raptor | I sometimes wonder if all online games are slowly dying because everyone can just be drugged from their own personal mobile device |
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| 15:10:46 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 15:11:02 | bobdaduck | No its because online games can't compete with larger big name games |
| 15:11:10 | bobdaduck | star craft 2, league of legends, etc |
| 15:12:03 | bobdaduck | Those are taking the players and people just play those instead and nobody tries to find new games |
| 15:12:08 | raptor | a few weeks ago some coworkers were staying late to finish a project, and they started playing starcraft 2 |
| 15:12:25 | raptor | i was invited, but they looked at me weird when i said i don't have starcraft |
| 15:12:40 | raptor | and that i didn't want it because it had no LAN play |
| 15:12:50 | raptor | (starcraft 2) |
| 15:13:22 | bobdaduck | unless they're a 30-something year old guy who remembered playing asteroids as a boy and is searching for a retro action arcade shoot-em-up game. |
| 15:14:15 | bobdaduck | I'm pretty sure that was like, _k's exact scenario. |
| 15:14:20 | bobdaduck | SEARCH FOR THE NOSTALGIA |
| 15:14:24 | raptor | hah |
| 15:14:41 | raptor | my brother and I like to search for odd games to play |
| 15:15:46 | bobdaduck | Bitfighter is just a lan game though, not nearly as well known as other popular lan games either. The things that make bitfighter unique (level editor, open source) don't appeal to our target audience (12-16 year old boys) |
| 15:16:04 | bobdaduck | And our highlight features don't fit with the actual gameplay, either. *shrug* |
| 15:17:08 | raptor | which features? |
| 15:17:42 | bobdaduck | Level editor, gameplay flexiblity, open source... These are things which are fairly unique to us |
| 15:18:03 | bobdaduck | But the actual gameplay? We just aren't addictive. |
| 15:18:25 | bobdaduck | Some people like that (unknownJoe), but for the most part that causes potential players to pass by |
| 15:18:50 | raptor | not addictive... |
| 15:18:53 | raptor | sigh |
| 15:19:06 | bobdaduck | sigh? |
| 15:20:34 | raptor | maybe we should all become technology teachers at middle/high schools and use bitfighter in our curriculum |
| 15:20:44 | bobdaduck | rofl |
| 15:21:11 | raptor | works for art, programming, umm... recess |
| 15:21:15 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 15:21:19 | bobdaduck | perfect. |
| 15:21:56 | bobdaduck | We need to start mind controlling our playerbase |
| 15:23:05 | | Watusimoto_ has joined |
| 15:25:42 | bobdaduck | We don't give players the sense of artificial progression they've come to expect from video games. |
| 15:25:49 | bobdaduck | With the exception of badges. |
| 15:25:55 | bobdaduck | We have like four of those, yeah. |
| 15:26:51 | raptor | sense of reward - i can't play games that I know are blatantly trying to make me feel better about myslef.. |
| 15:27:08 | raptor | feels too fake |
| 15:27:09 | bobdaduck | Stats, tournaments, rankings, upgrades, shops, currency, etc |
| 15:27:13 | bobdaduck | Of course its fake. |
| 15:27:17 | bobdaduck | But its also what's expected |
| 15:27:24 | bobdaduck | And we have none of that and players don't stick. |
| 15:28:25 | bobdaduck | Now imagine that each match you win, you get bitcoins which you can spend to upgrade your ship. Be it a stronger burst/phaser/shield, or a different ship shape |
| 15:28:49 | bobdaduck | Then, as people play the game more, they start to get an advantage over those who haven't played the game more |
| 15:29:29 | bobdaduck | So they want to play the game more. And the people who haven't played the game more want to play the game more to reach the point where they're better than everyone sheerly on account of having a golden phaser |
| 15:29:37 | bobdaduck | ...Pretty basic gaming psychology. |
| 15:30:01 | raptor | isn't there a level 13 ranking phaser druid in there somewhere? |
| 15:30:06 | bobdaduck | I don't like it either, but right now each bitfighter game means pretty much nothing and is completely based on skill, meaning I will always win and I will always win nothing. |
| 15:30:11 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 15:31:10 | bobdaduck | But I always win, and I'll keep always winning, and new or unskilled players don't really have much hope of actually beating me, nor do they have the promise that they'll reach that point eventually. The game is immediately stagnant. |
| 15:32:18 | | darkoda is now known as koda |
| 15:46:28 | raptor | so we should never focus play around 1 on 1, because bobdaduck will always squish your puny skills into the ground |
| 15:46:40 | bobdaduck | Well no |
| 15:46:47 | bobdaduck | Its just that the game is completely skill based |
| 15:47:02 | bobdaduck | And since I'm the best player, I'll win pretty much every match |
| 15:47:18 | bobdaduck | Unless its like me with a bunch of really bad players vs a ton of mostly good players. |
| 15:47:55 | bobdaduck | If a player gets a golden phaser for playing x games though, then they have an advantage over me in weapon selection |
| 15:48:21 | bobdaduck | Anyway I don't think that's really the right route but its what most of the "big" games have, and we don't have that. |
| 15:48:42 | bobdaduck | There's not a whole lot of strategy and there's a whole lot of skill |
| 15:48:51 | raptor | "you have earned 1 bobdaduck homing rail gun" |
| 15:49:03 | bobdaduck | rofl |
| 15:49:04 | raptor | how dare we make a game that requires skill! |
| 15:49:11 | raptor | the nerve of us |
| 15:49:44 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 15:49:48 | kaen | does starcraft two have unlockables? |
| 15:49:59 | kaen | because last I heard it was kind of popular... |
| 15:50:01 | bobdaduck | Starcraft two has strategy |
| 15:50:24 | bobdaduck | And it has ranked play (artificial progression; you're trying to get to higher ranks and whatever) |
| 15:50:32 | kaen | bitfighter has tactics |
| 15:50:38 | bobdaduck | And it does have unlockable avatars and novelty items I'm pretty sure |
| 15:50:39 | bobdaduck | Does it? |
| 15:50:52 | bobdaduck | Tactics like "when to press boost and when not to"? |
| 15:51:04 | kaen | well, that's one facet of its tactics |
| 15:51:05 | raptor | SC 2 has korean zerg rushes |
| 15:51:09 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 15:51:25 | kaen | but it has all the tactics of real-time ranged combat |
| 15:51:45 | bobdaduck | Now I'm not saying bitfighter isn't fun (I'm here, obviously) but we don't have the things that make most gamers stick. |
| 15:51:48 | kaen | cover/firing position, timing as you mentioned, accuracy and firing patterms... |
| 15:51:50 | raptor | i've been trying to find the good in teeworlds... |
| 15:52:00 | bobdaduck | Firing patterns? |
| 15:52:12 | kaen | you don't shoot straight at your target do you? |
| 15:52:14 | raptor | i think the sorted server list is about the best thing... |
| 15:52:16 | bobdaduck | This all seems pretty much skill not strategy |
| 15:52:23 | kaen | it's tactics |
| 15:52:30 | bobdaduck | Its skill |
| 15:52:42 | kaen | then strategy is skill to? |
| 15:52:47 | kaen | your argument is super fuzzy. |
| 15:52:49 | raptor | isn't skill required for tactics? |
| 15:52:49 | bobdaduck | And it doesn't give a very level playing field |
| 15:53:01 | kaen | uh |
| 15:53:17 | kaen | all players having access to all weapons/modules seems level |
| 15:53:21 | raptor | ok, i think i don't want in this arguments.. |
| 15:53:53 | bobdaduck | Yeah but using different weapons/modules doesn't really give you an advantage over other players |
| 15:54:16 | kaen | I think there's a learning curve just like all other online shooters where the players start "even" |
| 15:54:25 | kaen | and that's probably exacerbated by a lack of players |
| 15:54:35 | kaen | since you don't have a large team to average things out |
| 15:54:37 | bobdaduck | And a lack of a matchmaking system |
| 15:54:45 | raptor | yeah, i need a date |
| 15:55:28 | raptor | too many kids at home to watch.. |
| 15:55:43 | kaen | I don't think a matchmaking system would help |
| 15:55:43 | raptor | oh, not *that* matchmaking? |
| 15:55:47 | bobdaduck | rofl |
| 15:56:09 | raptor | one day I will beat footloose in a bitmatch |
| 15:56:12 | bobdaduck | Matchmaking system isn't viable with zero players |
| 15:56:14 | raptor | one day.. |
| 15:56:25 | kaen | hard to do much better than "hmm which server has non-zero players?" |
| 15:56:31 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 15:56:31 | raptor | haha |
| 15:57:14 | kaen | matchmaking also requires control of the servers in question.. |
| 15:57:27 | kaen | since it schedules when, where, and with whom games are to played |
| 15:57:30 | kaen | to be played* |
| 15:57:44 | bobdaduck | You're right, matchmaking might not be viable |
| 15:58:28 | bobdaduck | matchmaking wouldn't make players stick anyway though |
| 15:58:40 | kaen | but guys |
| 15:58:41 | bobdaduck | It would just help with a seperate problem |
| 15:58:49 | kaen | I'm starting to think we should cave |
| 15:59:11 | kaen | at least make "points" mean something and have graphical-only unlocks |
| 15:59:35 | kaen | maybe rankings and junk... I don't know |
| 16:00:09 | kaen | rankings would be good for like a "league" if you used them as divisions |
| 16:00:55 | raptor | come back from the dark side! |
| 16:00:56 | bobdaduck | ugh I dunno |
| 16:00:57 | kaen | and I mean, if it's a legitimate representation of the skill/effort you've applied to bitfighter, can you really say it's false satisfaction? |
| 16:02:13 | bobdaduck | I don't really see any reasons why not to |
| 16:02:13 | raptor | why can't games just be games, and not drug fixes... |
| 16:02:19 | bobdaduck | Other than it makes |
| 16:02:21 | bobdaduck | Yeah. |
| 16:02:22 | bobdaduck | That. |
| 16:02:25 | raptor | i'm too old school i guess |
| 16:02:27 | kaen | well, regardless I think that we should focus on game play in the short run |
| 16:02:40 | raptor | yes! |
| 16:02:42 | bobdaduck | I like bitfighter the way it is but |
| 16:02:47 | bobdaduck | the way bitfighter is isn't getting players. |
| 16:02:48 | kaen | I don't see any of that other junk as something to focus on immediately |
| 16:03:12 | kaen | I think there's lots of room for improvement just getting the word out |
| 16:03:44 | bobdaduck | I showed a friend the game. |
| 16:03:54 | kaen | maybe we should focus on reaching out to reviewers? |
| 16:03:57 | bobdaduck | He said "Its a good game, but nothing I'd ever just go out and play" |
| 16:04:16 | raptor | booo |
| 16:04:23 | kaen | maybe we should focus on some factors that impact people's immediate reaction to bitfighter? |
| 16:04:29 | raptor | yes! |
| 16:04:50 | kaen | I think the former would be good preparation for the latter |
| 16:04:53 | kaen | er |
| 16:04:55 | kaen | reverse those |
| 16:05:02 | raptor | we've determined: UI polish, bot manipulation, help system.. |
| 16:05:14 | kaen | how about sounds? |
| 16:05:19 | raptor | uhh.. something else.. i can't remember |
| 16:05:30 | kaen | I <3 the soundtrack, but the sound effects are really off putting to me... |
| 16:05:45 | raptor | the funny thing about sounds - all three of us active devs don't ever use them.. |
| 16:06:03 | kaen | that is funny |
| 16:06:14 | bobdaduck | I always play with sound off |
| 16:06:19 | kaen | I specifically turned them off when I got a computer with sound... |
| 16:06:32 | raptor | Watusimoto_ says his computer doesn't have sound and I always turn it off.. |
| 16:06:43 | kaen | well |
| 16:06:48 | raptor | maybe we should upgrade from 11.025 Hz.. |
| 16:06:55 | raptor | kHz |
| 16:06:55 | kaen | what? |
| 16:07:00 | kaen | oh |
| 16:07:07 | raptor | sampling rate |
| 16:07:11 | Watusimoto_ | hi |
| 16:07:12 | kaen | yeah... |
| 16:07:25 | kaen | I have some good synth software |
| 16:07:29 | Watusimoto_ | work computer has sound issues -- I always play with sound |
| 16:07:36 | bobdaduck | Maybe if we gave our game a storyline... |
| 16:07:37 | bobdaduck | xD |
| 16:07:46 | kaen | I was thinking of writing a fanfic :P |
| 16:07:49 | raptor | ha |
| 16:07:57 | bobdaduck | I was too xD |
| 16:08:05 | kaen | and/or levelgen'ing a campaign |
| 16:08:25 | bobdaduck | dungeons |
| 16:08:28 | Watusimoto_ | I did the new goal zone icon |
| 16:08:37 | Watusimoto_ | if this compiles, I'll check it in |
| 16:08:37 | raptor | oh good! screenie? |
| 16:08:43 | raptor | ok |
| 16:08:53 | Watusimoto_ | sure |
| 16:09:03 | raptor | also, i'm starting to get angry at our UI building flow... |
| 16:09:05 | Watusimoto_ | when compiliatoin is complete |
| 16:09:57 | kaen | what do you mean, raptor? |
| 16:10:39 | raptor | i'm trying to replace the ID dialog (in the editor) with a normal UI, like with the attribute handling.. |
| 16:11:12 | raptor | how are MenuItems usually deleted? by smart pointer? |
| 16:11:43 | raptor | ooohhhh |
| 16:12:00 | raptor | when you call addMenuItem() it wraps it in a shared_ptr |
| 16:12:02 | raptor | ah ok |
| 16:12:11 | raptor | silly me thinking I should manage memory.. |
| 16:12:40 | Watusimoto_ | http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/1232/3sd2.png |
| 16:12:44 | Watusimoto_ | not sure I totally dig it |
| 16:12:58 | raptor | neat! |
| 16:13:09 | raptor | it feels too 'square' |
| 16:13:16 | Watusimoto_ | fits in a 2x2 though! |
| 16:13:27 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 16:13:35 | bobdaduck | I have no idea what "G" stands for |
| 16:13:46 | Watusimoto_ | Great! |
| 16:13:49 | Watusimoto_ | Goo! |
| 16:13:55 | Watusimoto_ | Grimmace! |
| 16:13:59 | bobdaduck | Nobody will connect G to "Goal" unless we outright tell them |
| 16:14:10 | raptor | i know |
| 16:14:20 | Watusimoto_ | nor the gear with a loadout zone |
| 16:14:27 | bobdaduck | A flag at least makes some sense as an objective marker |
| 16:14:27 | raptor | use a circle and a weird flag - that way it represents soccer and flag game types |
| 16:15:00 | Watusimoto_ | I was thinking of concentric octagons |
| 16:15:18 | Watusimoto_ | completely abstract, but easier to differentiate on a cmdrs map |
| 16:15:27 | raptor | yeah try that! |
| 16:15:28 | raptor | oh |
| 16:15:47 | raptor | maybe we should change the zone outline a bit? |
| 16:15:58 | raptor | make it glow-y |
| 16:16:06 | bobdaduck | ITS A SLIPPERY SLOPE] |
| 16:16:08 | raptor | maybe... |
| 16:16:16 | bobdaduck | FIRST YOU ADD GLOWS AND NEXT YOU ADD DRAGON BALL Z SPACE LASERS |
| 16:16:33 | raptor | ok, no glows yet.. |
| 16:16:52 | raptor | fancy boxes on the menu selections! |
| 16:17:34 | bobdaduck | sure |
| 16:19:04 | Watusimoto_ | I'm quite sure this is no use to us, but it is pretty cool |
| 16:19:05 | Watusimoto_ | http://www.math.upenn.edu/~deturck/calabi/calabi.html |
| 16:20:22 | bobdaduck | bot nav zone generation? |
| 16:21:35 | Watusimoto_ | or this shape? |
| 16:21:37 | Watusimoto_ | http://cropcircleconnector.com/Sorensen/2004/LongbarrowLabyrinth3.jpg |
| 16:22:28 | raptor | imagine the Lua-scripted dungeon that could be written for a map shaped like that... |
| 16:27:25 | | BFLogBot Commit: 5b353c364c3e | Author: watusimoto | Message: Clear up the little mess with WarpPositionMask |
| 16:27:26 | | BFLogBot Commit: fba7424728e1 | Author: watusimoto | Message: New icon for goal zones |
| 16:30:48 | raptor | Watusimoto_: you should try my new object rotation (even with multiple objects) |
| 16:36:45 | Watusimoto_ | looks nice! |
| 16:37:11 | Watusimoto_ | so how to get arbitrary rotate? |
| 16:37:17 | raptor | add Ctrl |
| 16:37:20 | Watusimoto_ | ah, alt |
| 16:37:24 | raptor | oh yes |
| 16:37:26 | raptor | add alt |
| 16:37:34 | raptor | add shift to move opposite direction |
| 16:38:47 | Watusimoto_ | nice implementation |
| 16:39:33 | raptor | found and fixed two bugs with centroids trying to get that to work.. |
| 16:48:25 | Watusimoto_ | http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4303/1ul.png |
| 16:48:28 | Watusimoto_ | better? |
| 16:50:09 | kaen | I think so! |
| 16:54:27 | raptor | Oooo |
| 16:54:31 | raptor | i like it! |
| 16:55:16 | raptor | we need bobdaduck's critique |
| 16:55:29 | bobdaduck | SUPER MARIO |
| 16:55:40 | bobdaduck | Looks good but also childish but |
| 16:55:50 | bobdaduck | most of our community is like, 10-15 so |
| 16:57:09 | bobdaduck | SO its good |
| 16:58:26 | raptor | approval (ish) from bobdaduck! can't be! |
| 16:58:40 | bobdaduck | I still feel like a sort of flag is the way to go |
| 16:58:48 | bobdaduck | maybe like a square flag |
| 16:58:54 | bobdaduck | so it wouldn't conflict with normal flags |
| 17:00:07 | bobdaduck | http://pad2.whstatic.com/images/thumb/e/e6/Ink-flag-Step-6.jpg/550px-Ink-flag-Step-6.jpg |
| 17:00:47 | | raptor Quit () |
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| 17:02:18 | raptor | checkered |
| 17:02:46 | bobdaduck | its a more global sign of "finishing" or "objective", I think |
| 17:03:52 | raptor | i should play games more, so I can see what is used for an objective symbol |
| 17:04:12 | bobdaduck | Giant flashing arrows |
| 17:04:21 | bobdaduck | We sort of have that except it doesn't flash |
| 17:04:25 | kaen | I was thinking somehow checker the zone |
| 17:04:32 | kaen | but that would be expensive |
| 17:05:11 | | bobdaduck Quit (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 17:05:21 | raptor | hmm |
| 17:05:33 | raptor | maybe a checkered circle? |
| 17:05:42 | kaen | hmm |
| 17:05:59 | kaen | how about a 4x4 checkered square? |
| 17:07:40 | raptor | with or without an outline? |
| 17:08:14 | kaen | With I think |
| 17:10:49 | raptor | members are nouns, methods are verbs, right? |
| 17:11:00 | Watusimoto_ | well, I need sleep... will tinker with checkered things tomorrow, though I am dubious. My other experiments have been failures |
| 17:13:15 | raptor | ok |
| 17:13:24 | raptor | graphics always seem to take forever... |
| 17:14:40 | raptor | xmoto uses a checkered circle |
| 17:16:40 | raptor | supertux uses a checkered pole |
| 17:18:24 | raptor | extreme tuxracer has a checkered banner at the end |
| 17:19:45 | raptor | neverball uses a target (concentric red/white circles) |
| 17:19:52 | raptor | world of goo uses a pipe.. |
| 17:23:20 | Watusimoto_ | I'll try a pipe |
| 17:24:52 | raptor | and makes a flushing sound |
| 17:28:33 | | Watusimoto_ Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
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| 17:44:56 | kaen | ah, beautiful |
| 17:45:42 | kaen | uploading to the DB on windows gets an "error connecting to server" when it's run on a debug build without the debugger attached |
| 17:45:42 | kaen | but runs without an error when stepping through it with the debugger. |
| 17:51:42 | | raptor has joined |
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| 17:52:46 | raptor | the only way forward is printf statements! |
| 17:53:27 | raptor | kaen: i've had that same problem with debugging SDL issues in Windows - drove me mad |
| 18:02:38 | | koda Quit (Quit: koda) |
| 18:03:54 | raptor | it's like vc++ tries to help you out by not crashing when it should.. |
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| 21:18:26 | raptor | kaen: somehow your subdivide script gets run everytime i open the editor |
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| 21:59:10 | raptor | woot net split! |
| 22:03:59 | Nothing_Much | yeah |
| 22:19:03 | raptor | ok, i just found this member in UIEditor: |
| 22:19:05 | raptor | U32 mAllUndoneUndoLevel; // What undo level reflects everything back just the |
| 22:19:13 | raptor | what on earth does that even mean |
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