#bitfighter IRC Log

IRC Log for 2014-08-27

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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11:17:55 raptor good morning!
11:17:55 raptor so last night, I realized that we code in c++...
11:17:56 raptor then I asked myself:  self, why are we passing in 'const char *' as UI method parameters everywhere if we're using c++?
11:17:57 raptor and my self was silent.  He could not think of an answer.
11:17:57 koda you don’t want to answer “we should move to plain c"
11:18:12 raptor no, i sure don't want to answer like that...  :)
11:18:48 koda but why
11:18:48 koda loves C
11:19:51 raptor think of the work involved migrating such a complex c++ app like bitfighter to C!
11:20:02 starseeker winces
11:21:32 Nothing_Much is it that complex to migrate from one language to another?
11:21:33 Nothing_Much o.o
11:22:03 raptor sometimes no... almost always 'yes'
11:22:39 koda c++ to c is very easy
11:23:56 Nothing_Much ohh, okay
11:24:17 raptor i'm not sure I believe that, koda  :)
11:24:27 raptor what with c++ templates
11:24:49 koda you don’t know until you try
11:24:50 raptor haha, true
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11:42:28 -ChanServ- [#bitfighter] Welcome to #bitfighter.  This is an IRC channel, many or all of the users may not be paying attention.  Please have patience when waiting for a response.
11:43:11 starseeker templates, STL, classes...
11:43:42 starseeker C++ must be written in a very "C-like" fashion to be easily translated
11:44:19 starseeker which is possible, true enough - usually though, folks like to go the other way - take some C code and build it as C++ for strings or maps or whatnot
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11:45:50 raptor BFLogBot_: you forked!?
11:45:51 BFLogBot It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw. 
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11:46:36 -ChanServ- [#bitfighter] Welcome to #bitfighter.  This is an IRC channel, many or all of the users may not be paying attention.  Please have patience when waiting for a response.
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14:00:43 Watusimoto koda raptor and me on all at once!
14:00:51 raptor whoa!
14:00:54 koda woot
14:01:11 Watusimoto raptor: re const char *
14:01:21 Watusimoto we do it mostly because we've always done it
14:01:43 Watusimoto also I think const char * is much safer in C++ than C -- we don't have to do the memory management
14:02:01 raptor I was specifically thinking of safety
14:02:01 Watusimoto I have been slowly switching stuff to string
14:02:29 Watusimoto but then for constants and things that are just passed around and we never need to do stringy things with, I keep asking myself why incur the (minimal) overhead?
14:02:41 Watusimoto I don't think there are (many) safety issues
14:02:53 Watusimoto only things like returning a local.c_str() and such
14:03:06 raptor well...  is const char * really unmodifiable?  i think just the pointer is unmodifiable
14:03:17 Watusimoto yes, that's correct
14:03:26 Watusimoto const char * const is unmodifiable, I think
14:04:13 raptor ok...  I was just remembering all the time spent on really weird string-y type errors in the past
14:04:38 raptor but really, there probably isn't overhead using the const string &
14:05:09 raptor because we're constantly using strings more and more and it seems I frequently have to do string(charPointer) in more methods
14:05:17 raptor ok, not really frequently
14:05:22 raptor but i did it in the last week!
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17:27:35 Watusimoto sorry, got dragged away suddenly earlier...  if you feel motivated to migrate to a full on string anywhere you find things annoying, I wouldn't object!
17:27:49 Watusimoto ok, gotta run again... movers are here and things are crazy
17:29:02 koda +1
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23:06:47 amgine1234 hello
23:06:50 amgine1234 aything new to test ?
23:11:33 amgine1234 #bitfighter
23:11:39 raptor hi
23:11:41 raptor nope
23:11:44 raptor been a slooooow summer
23:12:47 amgine1234 raptor had a thought
23:12:56 amgine1234 after the BF.org crash
23:13:40 amgine1234 is it possible to have a system where like bitfighter.org will create a savestate like every 4 hours and if bitfighter .org crashes after 5m bf.org will laod te last state ?
23:13:55 amgine1234 if that makes sensae
23:14:18 raptor yes, we could backup to another server every 4 hours
23:14:43 amgine1234 would be kinda hard i think
23:14:47 raptor then switch the dns to the backup
23:14:55 raptor or actually
23:15:03 raptor have the dns point to a load-balancer
23:15:13 raptor that would be easier
23:15:15 amgine1234 anyways it was a thought i dont know how doable it is
23:15:30 raptor it's very doable...  but not really for such a small group as us
23:15:43 amgine1234 easier does not always
23:15:46 amgine1234 mean better Xd
23:15:56 amgine1234 well if bf.org catches on
23:16:02 amgine1234 then it will be nice
23:16:11 amgine1234 i htink we have a user population of maybe 20
23:17:12 amgine1234 hmm
23:17:50 amgine1234 maybe every 1 hour would be more accurate
23:17:56 amgine1234 problem is data space
23:18:17 amgine1234 we would have to knoick of X number of backups after X are already created
23:18:19 raptor actually space is not a problem, we just need double (e.g. another server)
23:18:39 amgine1234 hmm ill think about it
23:18:51 amgine1234 btw i wrote the basic exp system for leveling in Bf raptor ;)
23:19:15 amgine1234 problem is im stuck on trying to figure out on how to distribute the  Exp you get for exh game mode to be balanced
23:19:26 amgine1234 if you have any ideas let me know
23:19:55 amgine1234 basic exp to level is Y=X(X+10)
23:20:13 amgine1234 100k for level 100
23:20:19 amgine1234 to infinity
23:21:54 amgine1234 level 1000 ( never would happen) would be 10000000 exp! xd
23:25:43 amgine1234 umm the integral for Y=X(X+10) is  ∫f(x)dx=	x3+15x23
23:27:34 amgine1234 ok correction its f(x)dx=((x^3)+(15x^2)/3)
23:28:37 amgine1234 so cumiltive exp for level 100 would be  umm
23:30:15 amgine1234 arg bad math bad!
23:30:22 amgine1234 been way to long Xd
23:30:59 fordcars has joined
23:31:29 fordcars Hello people of irc
23:31:37 raptor hello
23:32:53 raptor the real question of the night...  is it time to move to win64 ?
23:33:17 fordcars raptor, just out of curiosity, you were wondering why bf was using "const char*" instead of strings from the string.h?
23:33:26 amgine1234 win64 raptor ?
23:33:30 raptor no, not the string.h
23:34:01 raptor it's just we're passing in const char* in a lot of methods and it would be simpler to just uset const string& in many of the cases
23:34:10 fordcars Oh ok
23:34:35 fordcars I have no idea haha, I still need to learn what & does
23:34:46 fordcars Apart from "get the adress of"
23:35:10 raptor yes, it basically just passes the address
23:35:22 raptor instead of copying the entire object
23:35:31 raptor so it's very useful for keeping code fast
23:36:03 amgine1234 raptor had a thought
23:36:06 fordcars Ohh, but wouldn't it be const &string?
23:36:14 amgine1234 can we kill lua and go to pure C++ ?
23:36:21 raptor like this:  const string &someString
23:36:22 amgine1234 more flexibility
23:36:24 fordcars amgine, no more DnD :(
23:36:29 fordcars Oh ookokokok
23:36:31 amgine1234 why ford ?
23:36:31 fordcars Nice!
23:36:45 fordcars Levelgens and bots are written in Lua
23:37:17 amgine1234 well we could convert them to C++
23:37:18 raptor having some scripting language is very good - allowing game manipulation without having to recompile
23:37:34 amgine1234 problem is lua is a little inflexible
23:37:38 fordcars The Lua API rocks
23:37:41 raptor let's people create without having to redistribute their compiled code
23:37:49 amgine1234 might make bot and level scripting easier in the long run
23:37:58 raptor it is inflexible...  sort of, you just need to make it flexible :)
23:38:01 amgine1234 cause frankl;y S_bot is DUMB!
23:38:09 amgine1234 Xd
23:38:09 fordcars Bitfighter's API is the best I have ever seen for sure (well, I have only seen a few)
23:38:23 raptor oh definitely not - it would make it harder in the longrun without it
23:38:44 fordcars s_bot is dumb because it has been the same for ages and it needs an update
23:38:44 raptor because right now, anyone can go in and fix s_bot (or create him anew!)
23:38:57 fordcars But working on s_bot is boring
23:38:59 raptor without needing to redistribute the code
23:39:03 raptor it is a slog, yes
23:39:47 fordcars s_bot is a mystical and mysterious monster to tame
23:41:36 raptor but he is our beloved monster
23:41:43 amgine1234 not really
23:42:17 raptor always there when you need him...  to keep you company, fill in the gaps
23:44:01 fordcars s_bot vs one player in an open map is really tough to beat
23:44:31 Watusimoto has joined
23:44:33 fordcars Yet it can't figure out how to shoot a player behind a force field
23:44:37 raptor yeah, s_bot is relentless in that situation
23:45:21 amgine1234 it aslo cant figure out hoe to go around teles and speedbosts xd
23:45:21 amgine1234 or use teles
23:46:13 raptor we need to redo our ugly windows icon
23:46:34 amgine1234 could it be possible to write a code somthing like if this tele gets me closer to my target take it if not dont take it ?
23:46:51 amgine1234 for S_bot
23:46:57 raptor s_bot uses teleporter, but for some reason it's not very efficient
23:47:15 raptor it's a path-finding issue
23:47:18 amgine1234 umm not it doesnt it only uses it bascily if its in its target path
23:47:40 amgine1234 for example camp behind a tel in CTf the robot will get sruck running into it over and over
23:47:48 amgine1234 althought it will shot
23:47:52 amgine1234 you but nevr get teh flag
23:48:42 fordcars Really? That is fairly easy to repair
23:48:51 amgine1234 btw i had a idea
23:49:00 fordcars Just make it evoid teles that it doesn't want
23:49:01 amgine1234 instead of making people redownload bitfighter over and over
23:49:05 fordcars *avoid
23:49:49 amgine1234 what if a message popped up saying bF is now out of date would you like to update it ?
23:50:03 amgine1234 and if you clicked yes it would auto udate any new files
23:50:07 fordcars It does that since 17 I think
23:50:13 amgine1234 otherwsie you owuld keep a old version
23:50:16 amgine1234 no not quite
23:50:24 amgine1234 it jsut tells you you have to update it
23:50:33 amgine1234 so you still ahve to go to BF.org
23:50:42 fordcars I get a window showing up at startup asking me to update automatically
23:50:51 amgine1234 uh no ?
23:50:53 fordcars Downloads automatically too
23:50:59 amgine1234 umm no ?
23:51:03 fordcars Must be your anti virus or something
23:51:06 fordcars Firewall
23:52:07 amgine1234 its bitfighter! XD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiJIhrLadVI
23:52:50 amgine1234 norton anti virus is sh** but my dad wont remove it

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11:17:55	raptor	good morning!
11:17:55	raptor	so last night, I realized that we code in c++...
11:17:56	raptor	then I asked myself: self, why are we passing in 'const char *' as UI method parameters everywhere if we're using c++?
11:17:57	raptor	and my self was silent. He could not think of an answer.
11:17:57	koda	you don’t want to answer “we should move to plain c"
11:18:12	raptor	no, i sure don't want to answer like that... :)
11:18:48	koda	but why
11:18:48		koda loves C
11:19:51	raptor	think of the work involved migrating such a complex c++ app like bitfighter to C!
11:20:02		starseeker winces
11:21:32	Nothing_Much	is it that complex to migrate from one language to another?
11:21:33	Nothing_Much	o.o
11:22:03	raptor	sometimes no... almost always 'yes'
11:22:39	koda	c++ to c is very easy
11:23:56	Nothing_Much	ohh, okay
11:24:17	raptor	i'm not sure I believe that, koda :)
11:24:27	raptor	what with c++ templates
11:24:49	koda	you don’t know until you try
11:24:50	raptor	haha, true
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11:43:11	starseeker	templates, STL, classes...
11:43:42	starseeker	C++ must be written in a very "C-like" fashion to be easily translated
11:44:19	starseeker	which is possible, true enough - usually though, folks like to go the other way - take some C code and build it as C++ for strings or maps or whatnot
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11:45:50	raptor	BFLogBot_: you forked!?
11:45:51	BFLogBot	It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw.
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11:46:36		-ChanServ- [#bitfighter] Welcome to #bitfighter. This is an IRC channel, many or all of the users may not be paying attention. Please have patience when waiting for a response.
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14:00:43	Watusimoto	koda raptor and me on all at once!
14:00:51	raptor	whoa!
14:00:54	koda	woot
14:01:11	Watusimoto	raptor: re const char *
14:01:21	Watusimoto	we do it mostly because we've always done it
14:01:43	Watusimoto	also I think const char * is much safer in C++ than C -- we don't have to do the memory management
14:02:01	raptor	I was specifically thinking of safety
14:02:01	Watusimoto	I have been slowly switching stuff to string
14:02:29	Watusimoto	but then for constants and things that are just passed around and we never need to do stringy things with, I keep asking myself why incur the (minimal) overhead?
14:02:41	Watusimoto	I don't think there are (many) safety issues
14:02:53	Watusimoto	only things like returning a local.c_str() and such
14:03:06	raptor	well... is const char * really unmodifiable? i think just the pointer is unmodifiable
14:03:17	Watusimoto	yes, that's correct
14:03:26	Watusimoto	const char * const is unmodifiable, I think
14:04:13	raptor	ok... I was just remembering all the time spent on really weird string-y type errors in the past
14:04:38	raptor	but really, there probably isn't overhead using the const string &
14:05:09	raptor	because we're constantly using strings more and more and it seems I frequently have to do string(charPointer) in more methods
14:05:17	raptor	ok, not really frequently
14:05:22	raptor	but i did it in the last week!
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17:27:35	Watusimoto	sorry, got dragged away suddenly earlier... if you feel motivated to migrate to a full on string anywhere you find things annoying, I wouldn't object!
17:27:49	Watusimoto	ok, gotta run again... movers are here and things are crazy
17:29:02	koda	+1
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23:06:47	amgine1234	hello
23:06:50	amgine1234	aything new to test ?
23:11:33	amgine1234	#bitfighter
23:11:39	raptor	hi
23:11:41	raptor	nope
23:11:44	raptor	been a slooooow summer
23:12:47	amgine1234	raptor had a thought
23:12:56	amgine1234	after the BF.org crash
23:13:40	amgine1234	is it possible to have a system where like bitfighter.org will create a savestate like every 4 hours and if bitfighter .org crashes after 5m bf.org will laod te last state ?
23:13:55	amgine1234	if that makes sensae
23:14:18	raptor	yes, we could backup to another server every 4 hours
23:14:43	amgine1234	would be kinda hard i think
23:14:47	raptor	then switch the dns to the backup
23:14:55	raptor	or actually
23:15:03	raptor	have the dns point to a load-balancer
23:15:13	raptor	that would be easier
23:15:15	amgine1234	anyways it was a thought i dont know how doable it is
23:15:30	raptor	it's very doable... but not really for such a small group as us
23:15:43	amgine1234	easier does not always
23:15:46	amgine1234	mean better Xd
23:15:56	amgine1234	well if bf.org catches on
23:16:02	amgine1234	then it will be nice
23:16:11	amgine1234	i htink we have a user population of maybe 20
23:17:12	amgine1234	hmm
23:17:50	amgine1234	maybe every 1 hour would be more accurate
23:17:56	amgine1234	problem is data space
23:18:17	amgine1234	we would have to knoick of X number of backups after X are already created
23:18:19	raptor	actually space is not a problem, we just need double (e.g. another server)
23:18:39	amgine1234	hmm ill think about it
23:18:51	amgine1234	btw i wrote the basic exp system for leveling in Bf raptor ;)
23:19:15	amgine1234	problem is im stuck on trying to figure out on how to distribute the Exp you get for exh game mode to be balanced
23:19:26	amgine1234	if you have any ideas let me know
23:19:55	amgine1234	basic exp to level is Y=X(X+10)
23:20:13	amgine1234	100k for level 100
23:20:19	amgine1234	to infinity
23:21:54	amgine1234	level 1000 ( never would happen) would be 10000000 exp! xd
23:25:43	amgine1234	umm the integral for Y=X(X+10) is ∫f(x)dx= x3+15x23
23:27:34	amgine1234	ok correction its f(x)dx=((x^3)+(15x^2)/3)
23:28:37	amgine1234	so cumiltive exp for level 100 would be umm
23:30:15	amgine1234	arg bad math bad!
23:30:22	amgine1234	been way to long Xd
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23:31:29	fordcars	Hello people of irc
23:31:37	raptor	hello
23:32:53	raptor	the real question of the night... is it time to move to win64 ?
23:33:17	fordcars	raptor, just out of curiosity, you were wondering why bf was using "const char*" instead of strings from the string.h?
23:33:26	amgine1234	win64 raptor ?
23:33:30	raptor	no, not the string.h
23:34:01	raptor	it's just we're passing in const char* in a lot of methods and it would be simpler to just uset const string& in many of the cases
23:34:10	fordcars	Oh ok
23:34:35	fordcars	I have no idea haha, I still need to learn what & does
23:34:46	fordcars	Apart from "get the adress of"
23:35:10	raptor	yes, it basically just passes the address
23:35:22	raptor	instead of copying the entire object
23:35:31	raptor	so it's very useful for keeping code fast
23:36:03	amgine1234	raptor had a thought
23:36:06	fordcars	Ohh, but wouldn't it be const &string?
23:36:14	amgine1234	can we kill lua and go to pure C++ ?
23:36:21	raptor	like this: const string &someString
23:36:22	amgine1234	more flexibility
23:36:24	fordcars	amgine, no more DnD :(
23:36:29	fordcars	Oh ookokokok
23:36:31	amgine1234	why ford ?
23:36:31	fordcars	Nice!
23:36:45	fordcars	Levelgens and bots are written in Lua
23:37:17	amgine1234	well we could convert them to C++
23:37:18	raptor	having some scripting language is very good - allowing game manipulation without having to recompile
23:37:34	amgine1234	problem is lua is a little inflexible
23:37:38	fordcars	The Lua API rocks
23:37:41	raptor	let's people create without having to redistribute their compiled code
23:37:49	amgine1234	might make bot and level scripting easier in the long run
23:37:58	raptor	it is inflexible... sort of, you just need to make it flexible :)
23:38:01	amgine1234	cause frankl;y S_bot is DUMB!
23:38:09	amgine1234	Xd
23:38:09	fordcars	Bitfighter's API is the best I have ever seen for sure (well, I have only seen a few)
23:38:23	raptor	oh definitely not - it would make it harder in the longrun without it
23:38:44	fordcars	s_bot is dumb because it has been the same for ages and it needs an update
23:38:44	raptor	because right now, anyone can go in and fix s_bot (or create him anew!)
23:38:57	fordcars	But working on s_bot is boring
23:38:59	raptor	without needing to redistribute the code
23:39:03	raptor	it is a slog, yes
23:39:47	fordcars	s_bot is a mystical and mysterious monster to tame
23:41:36	raptor	but he is our beloved monster
23:41:43	amgine1234	not really
23:42:17	raptor	always there when you need him... to keep you company, fill in the gaps
23:44:01	fordcars	s_bot vs one player in an open map is really tough to beat
23:44:31		Watusimoto has joined
23:44:33	fordcars	Yet it can't figure out how to shoot a player behind a force field
23:44:37	raptor	yeah, s_bot is relentless in that situation
23:45:21	amgine1234	it aslo cant figure out hoe to go around teles and speedbosts xd
23:45:21	amgine1234	or use teles
23:46:13	raptor	we need to redo our ugly windows icon
23:46:34	amgine1234	could it be possible to write a code somthing like if this tele gets me closer to my target take it if not dont take it ?
23:46:51	amgine1234	for S_bot
23:46:57	raptor	s_bot uses teleporter, but for some reason it's not very efficient
23:47:15	raptor	it's a path-finding issue
23:47:18	amgine1234	umm not it doesnt it only uses it bascily if its in its target path
23:47:40	amgine1234	for example camp behind a tel in CTf the robot will get sruck running into it over and over
23:47:48	amgine1234	althought it will shot
23:47:52	amgine1234	you but nevr get teh flag
23:48:42	fordcars	Really? That is fairly easy to repair
23:48:51	amgine1234	btw i had a idea
23:49:00	fordcars	Just make it evoid teles that it doesn't want
23:49:01	amgine1234	instead of making people redownload bitfighter over and over
23:49:05	fordcars	*avoid
23:49:49	amgine1234	what if a message popped up saying bF is now out of date would you like to update it ?
23:50:03	amgine1234	and if you clicked yes it would auto udate any new files
23:50:07	fordcars	It does that since 17 I think
23:50:13	amgine1234	otherwsie you owuld keep a old version
23:50:16	amgine1234	no not quite
23:50:24	amgine1234	it jsut tells you you have to update it
23:50:33	amgine1234	so you still ahve to go to BF.org
23:50:42	fordcars	I get a window showing up at startup asking me to update automatically
23:50:51	amgine1234	uh no ?
23:50:53	fordcars	Downloads automatically too
23:50:59	amgine1234	umm no ?
23:51:03	fordcars	Must be your anti virus or something
23:51:06	fordcars	Firewall
23:52:07	amgine1234	its bitfighter! XD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiJIhrLadVI
23:52:50	amgine1234	norton anti virus is sh** but my dad wont remove it