#bitfighter IRC Log

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IRC Log for 2015-03-28

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

00:16:15raptor has joined


00:16:15ChanServ sets mode +o


00:16:26raptorgood evening!


00:16:34raptoralmost done with the first part of this refactor


00:46:13raptornight!


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11:23:21raptorlarge refactor coming in!


11:30:15Nothing_Muchrefactor?


11:30:22Nothing_Muchis that a new Bitfighter feature? o.o


11:31:08raptor'refactor' means a reorganization of code


11:31:37Nothing_Muchohh


11:31:39Nothing_Muchnice


11:31:48raptorusually for some purpose.  in this case it's to abstract our OpenGL layer for someday moving to GLES2


11:35:14BFLogBot Commit: dde08c9ba3 | Author: buckyballreaction | Message: Large rendering refactor: - Move gameObjectRender and RenderUtils methods into their own classes - Move many methods from GameObjectRender into RenderUtils - Make any class that needs access to the GL object be a sub-class of RenderManager - Remove OpenglUtils class


11:35:15BFLogBot Commit: dd1355c247 | Author: buckyballreaction | Message: Rename gameObjectRender to GameObjectRender


11:54:34raptorok, i think that's about half done...


11:54:42raptorgotta go, later!


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14:24:32JeffMB has joined


14:24:38JeffMBhi guys :D


14:24:46raptorhi JeffMB


14:24:56JeffMBraptor: what version of lua are you using in BF. 5.1 or 5.3?


14:25:19JeffMBi haven't been able to find  the JIT compilier for 5.3 :(


14:26:07raptor5.1


14:26:14raptorthere is no LuaJIT for 5.3


14:26:15raptoronly 5.1


14:26:25JeffMBah


14:26:41raptorso basically, if you want JIT, then you're stuck with 5.1


14:26:44JeffMBi saw something regarding 64bit for 5.3....does 5.1 run on 64bit compiled programs?


14:26:53raptorsure does


14:27:04JeffMBhmm


14:27:14JeffMBwelp


14:27:15raptorthere may have been 64bit enhancements added to 5.3


14:27:22JeffMBsaw something like 64bit ints


14:27:25JeffMBbeing a thing


14:27:26raptorah


14:27:29raptoryeah, ok


14:27:31JeffMBand bitwise mathematics


14:27:33raptor5.1 only uses floats


14:27:55raptoryeah, that was added, too - but luajit does have an added bitwise library


14:28:22JeffMBhmm


14:28:36JeffMBif you were going to use lua in a new project, would u use 5.3 and skip the JIT or use 5.1 in ur opinion


14:28:47raptordepends on what i'd need it for


14:29:03raptorif i think processing is going to be intense on the Lua side of things, i would definitely use LuaJIT


14:29:03JeffMBuse it for an engine script engine :P


14:29:19JeffMBi wana replace TorqueScript in Torque2D with Lua


14:29:27raptorWHOA BIG PROJECT


14:29:33JeffMBxD


14:29:51JeffMBnot as big on that end as u'd think. im not using torque2d as a 2d thing


14:29:58raptorah ok


14:30:19raptorI've become very fond of LuaJIT...


14:30:20JeffMBim actually going to be doing some voxel based rendering using torque2d as a base, and adding 3d too it. cuz its lightweight and it has 6 platforms support. torque3d is way to bloated


14:30:35JeffMBgotta remove all the 2d shit first


14:31:05raptorbut it doesn't integrate as nicely with build systems


14:31:11raptorLuaJIT, that is


14:31:16JeffMBah


14:31:25JeffMBi mean


14:31:30JeffMBlua itself is faster thanTS :P


14:31:42JeffMBby a lot :P


14:31:48JeffMBsomeone did benchmarks :p


14:31:55raptoryeah - so i'd probably use lua 5.1, then if it isn't fast enough, hook in luajit


14:32:21JeffMBhowever if its fast enough why not just use 5.3 to get all the cool features? :P


14:32:23JeffMBsee what i mean


14:32:38raptortru


14:32:40raptortrue


14:33:09JeffMBi planned on having a lot of the bulk being in C++, and exposing things to script for things like modding and stuffs


14:33:18raptorunless its *not* fast enough, then you have to do the backporting, which i'm guessing is more difficult than migrating 5.1 -> 5.3


14:33:23raptor*it's


14:33:37raptorah, so, funny thing -


14:34:09raptorwe found that luajit runs code faster (in most cases) than if you use lua to call c++ methods


14:34:37JeffMBsee I don't plan on having heavy duty tings being in lua though :P


14:34:43raptorbecause the overhead in using the Lua C API slows it down that much (but it's still fast)


14:34:55raptorwell there's your answer :)


14:34:58JeffMBhehehe


14:35:07raptorstraight Lua


14:35:32raptori know several games that have decided to move to luajit instead of lua 5.2/5.3


14:36:01JeffMBhowever, hypothetically speaking here, say i wanted a per frame callback on X number of objects. i guess that's more for a JIT than straight


14:36:03raptorxmoto, naev, hedgewars (i think?), bitfighter...


14:36:27JeffMBdepends on whats in the callback though i guess too, how much ur doing


14:36:28fordcarsTalking about Naev, I've been playing for an hour


14:36:34raptorfordcars: how do you like it?


14:36:46raptorit's pretty!


14:36:54fordcarsIt's fun :D I didn't expect a huge universe like that


14:37:12raptoryeah, it's gotten about 2.5x bigger since last release


14:37:31JeffMBraptor too bad zap wasn't included in torque2d, u could be using a modern engine :P


14:37:54JeffMBcuz the netcode still exists


14:38:01raptormodern/shmodern - our game runs fine and dandy... and fast!  :)


14:38:21JeffMBsuprised u guys didn't port it to the pi yet ;)


14:38:28JeffMBthat'd be a lightweight game to run on that


14:39:42fordcarsIt does run on it


14:39:45fordcarsKind of


14:39:55fordcarsNo hardware acceleration


14:40:01JeffMBya no opengl ES :P


14:40:21JeffMBcould rap the immediate mode around ES calls ;) but that sounds shitty :P


14:40:25JeffMBES 1.1 calls lol


14:40:25fordcarshttps://github.com/lunixbochs/glshim


14:40:37fordcarsThese kind of shims or whatever seem promising though, maybe


14:40:43fordcarsMaybe not though


14:40:46raptorbitfighter runs ES 1.1


14:40:54JeffMBi thought


14:40:55fordcarsOh, maybe


14:40:58JeffMBit only ran desktop gl


14:40:59JeffMB:p


14:41:03raptorand, actually, we're in the middle of a refactor so we can support ES 2


14:41:10JeffMBoh nice


14:41:12fordcarsYess


14:41:38raptorCanseco ported it to the pandora:  http://repo.openpandora.org/?page=detail&app=bitfighter


14:41:54fordcarsOpenGL ES 1 though


14:41:58raptorES 1.1, yes


14:42:11raptorwhich is a subset of desktop GL 1.3


14:42:18fordcarsThat must be so awesome to play on there


14:42:19raptorso it wasn't that hard to port


14:43:03fordcarsI mam getting a RPi 2 soon


14:43:11fordcars*am


14:43:42JeffMBraptor u said floats/strings for lua 5.1 right? does it support signed integers at all?


14:43:44raptoroh?  i didn't know one was in the works..


14:44:01raptorJeffMB: nope, everything is saved as a Lua Number


14:44:13fordcarsraptor: Yeah, 1gb of Ram and Quad-core


14:44:13JeffMBwhat's a lua number count as lol


14:44:14raptorwhich ends up being a float


14:44:17JeffMBoh


14:44:18fordcars*900mghz


14:44:31JeffMBya that quad core A7 looks awesome


14:44:32fordcarsAround 6x faster, still 35$


14:44:35JeffMBim considering buying one


14:44:42raptor$35!?!?!?


14:44:48JeffMByes


14:44:50JeffMB$35


14:44:54fordcarsYess


14:44:57raptori don't believe it


14:45:00JeffMBwell u should :p


14:45:12JeffMBhttp://www.raspberrypi.org/raspberry-pi-2-on-sale/


14:45:37JeffMBwindows 10 ARM for pi will be free too


14:45:39JeffMBaccording to microsoft


14:45:52JeffMBhowever I wouldn't put windows on it


14:45:57JeffMBthats putting cancer on a good device ;)


14:45:58fordcarsHaha yeah, no


14:46:43raptori see it, and i don't believe it


14:46:47JeffMBlol!


14:47:07fordcarsHahaha


14:47:12JeffMBits like....as powerful as most cell phones for the cost of 1/10th of the phone!


14:47:26JeffMB:P


14:48:23JeffMBraptor: how do you deal with java. it makes me cry. no unsigned variables.


14:49:16raptorJeffMB: very carefully...


14:49:42raptorfor the most part, you don't have to think about it unless you're doing network programming or something crazy that does bitmasks


14:51:10JeffMBhehe


14:51:36JeffMBit doesn't help when im used to managing my own memory :(


14:51:44JeffMBand then java's like NOPE GC pls


14:52:10raptoryep.  it makes coding quite a bit faster


14:52:20raptoralthough it does consume lots of RAM


14:52:24JeffMBya


14:52:29JeffMBthats what pisses me off :P


14:52:31JeffMBthe RAM consumption :p


14:52:49raptorBFLogBot: was written in java


14:52:49BFLogBotBe careful or be road-kill. 


14:53:01JeffMB^ lol!


14:53:03JeffMBwtf


14:53:09JeffMBBFLogBot you pleb


14:53:09BFLogBotMom and dad say I should make my life an example of the principles I believe in. But every time I do, they tell me to stop it. 


14:53:09raptorbecause i wanted something to log IRC, and i wanted to write it quickly


14:53:22JeffMBheh


14:53:38JeffMBI'm lol'ing at "be careful or be road-kill" not u writing it in java fyi


14:53:45raptorbut the RAM consumption was an issue, so i took the time to rewrite it in python


14:53:45JeffMBjust to clarify


14:53:46JeffMB:p


14:53:52raptorhaha, yeah


14:53:59raptori'm glad he still speaks..


14:54:07JeffMBBFLogBot speak to me, im lonely


14:54:07BFLogBotI imagine bugs and girls have a dim perception that nature played a cruel trick on them, but they lack the intelligence to really comprehend the magnitude of it. 


14:54:09JeffMBawe


14:54:11JeffMBthats so cool :p


14:55:41raptorhmmm...   i'm not sure that quote will get us any female programmers here..


14:55:52JeffMBhaha


14:56:17JeffMBwe had a girl playing mb the other day i was like ooo wow a female playing marble blast! and it happened to be footie :P


14:56:27JeffMBshoulda expected :p


14:56:52JeffMBfordcars was playing mb the other day for about an hour with me


14:56:58fordcarsYep, I suck


14:57:02JeffMBnaw


14:57:04JeffMBit was ur first time


14:57:14raptormy kids ask me to play MB almost every day


14:57:20JeffMBhaha


14:57:27JeffMBit is quite addicting ....for all ages :P


14:57:50raptordoesn't make me sick like neverball


14:57:53JeffMBask IsraeliRD the head admin if u don't believe me. hes 26 and he still plays all the time :P


14:58:28JeffMBmb is by far the best marble game imo


14:58:35JeffMBin terms of marble control and physics


14:59:51raptoryeah, i'm impressed


15:00:33JeffMBunfortunatly no one has acess to the code. it's locked and sealed inside of the executable file and the company that owns MB don't give a flying fig about it.


15:00:45JeffMB:(


15:01:13JeffMBthats one nice thing bout BF. you guys actually have hte sauce code :P


15:01:15raptorthere's one game that i like that is like that - it's called 'Stars!'


15:05:19JeffMBtime to start ripping out the 2D stuff from Torque2D! :P


15:05:22JeffMBlike box2d :p


15:05:31raptori follow a variety of open source games:  bitfighter, hedgewars, naev, freeorion, and supertuxkart


15:05:44raptori've contributed to all of them except supertuxkart


15:07:06JeffMBso basically, marble2 (who i think is on here before, f00tie's brother), myself, and a moderator over at marbleblast.com have all decided that we wanted to do a minecraft-like-sorta game. So that's what were using toqrue2d for


15:07:28JeffMBopen source, MIT license, using c++ and lua, and must be cross platform. those were the requirements


15:07:36raptorminetest?


15:07:41raptoroh, it'll be 2d


15:07:42raptor?


15:07:43JeffMBno


15:08:09JeffMBbasically minetest but..i think eventually once the base is done, maybe actually make it different :P


15:08:18JeffMBlol


15:08:47JeffMBminetest theres no core gameplay to it, u gotta add and install a buncha mods, and i heard the api for modding was pretty bad.


15:08:57JeffMBi didn't look into it though


15:09:50JeffMB+ who doesn't like torque's networking :D hahahahahaa


15:11:33JeffMBi noticed they use irchlet for rendering engine


15:11:42JeffMBor however u spell it


15:11:53raptorwho?


15:11:57JeffMBminetest


15:12:04raptorah, like supertuxkar


15:12:08raptorsupertuxkart


15:12:47JeffMBim not using no rendering engine.


15:13:07JeffMBraw opengl is for the strong, rendering engines are for the weak.


15:13:09JeffMB;)


15:14:40raptorhah


15:14:50raptorstrong-stomached, maybe


15:15:09JeffMBi gotta make some sort of wrapper functions though.


15:15:26JeffMBso that way inside of the wrapper functions, it can map calls to GL fixed function, gl shaders, or gles


15:15:51JeffMBfigured vbos for shaders/gles and client side vertex arrays for fixed function. and no  immediate mode because ew.


15:16:12raptorthat's what i've been doing this week in bitfighter code


15:16:19JeffMBoh haha


15:16:21raptorbuilding a wrapper


15:16:28JeffMBya i plan on making a tGL layer which stands for...Torque GL :P


15:16:49JeffMBthen anywhere outside of the layer, just call tglDraw* tglBind* or w/e


15:17:25JeffMBdebating on shaders to go with opengl 2.1 or opengl 3.2


15:17:53JeffMBi know wiht 2.1 u can mix FFP still


15:18:12JeffMBbut 3.2 is like "the core" :P


15:18:32JeffMBbut 2.1 shaders are more compatiable with gles 2.0 :P


15:18:38JeffMBugh so much decisions!


15:18:56JeffMBhow about we screw it and just implement vulkan, eh raptor ;)


15:20:47raptorthen how will we run on OSX ppc!?


15:20:54JeffMBD:


15:20:58JeffMBam cry.


15:21:08JeffMBbut your droping PPC in 20 u said :C


15:21:09JeffMBlol


15:21:39JeffMB backports bitfighter 20.0 to have a wrapper around FFP for shaders.


15:21:54raptorit's likely yes


15:22:01raptorwe'll see how much work it'll require


15:22:08JeffMBhey my powerpc mac is supposed to run shaders


15:22:10JeffMBit  has a FX card


15:22:16JeffMBit runs them at like 3fps, but it runs them :D


15:22:39JeffMBthats with HW acceleration too :C


15:22:53JeffMBnvidia screwed up the fx 5200 ultra. such a shitty card.


15:23:21JeffMBi have a radeon agp flashed mac 9600 pro. but i haven't put it in the G5 yet to see what it would do


15:23:43JeffMBthat actually has opengl 2.0 support.


15:23:47JeffMBshocking


15:24:11raptori figure we'll stay at GL/GLES 1.1 for everything unless it requires ES 2 (when we get to that point)


15:24:33JeffMBoh i thought u were going all shaders


15:24:34JeffMBlol


15:27:32raptorno, that's crazy


15:34:05JeffMBbut im crazy :^) so i guess thats why i thought that


15:41:00JeffMBgeeze 2800fps in this torque2d demo?


15:41:33JeffMBguess thast why i have a 750ti :p


15:48:29JeffMBanyone know anything about x86 asm here? i got a question :p


15:48:53raptora tiny bit - but if you're at the ASM level in code, then you're probably doing it wrong


15:49:10JeffMBnope nope i think i found a bug in the their math asm


15:49:18JeffMBreally short function


15:49:19JeffMBsec


15:49:35JeffMBhttps://github.com/JeffProgrammer/Torque2D/blob/master/engine/source/platformWin32/winMath_ASM.cc#L40


15:49:52JeffMBshouldn't that be a U32 r;


15:50:49raptornot sure - it could be either, honestly - at the ASM level weird things can happen


15:51:16JeffMBhehe


15:53:07JeffMBdamn u know this code is cold when they have a check for cpu intel 486


15:53:13JeffMBold*


15:55:50fordcarsIsn't Asm removing some cross-platoformaty?


15:55:58raptorit is


15:56:05fordcarsAs in, no Arm or ppc


15:57:00raptornormally, you'd #ifdef out the asm for a specific platform and use normal code


15:57:39JeffMB99.99% of torque's code isn't asm, thank god. because i wouldn't be using it :P


15:57:51fordcarsHah


15:57:57JeffMBluckilly it has x86, arm, and ppc asm, or so i think..?


15:58:12JeffMBshould have arm, it has driod/ios support


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15:59:05fordcarsI wish I could C++


15:59:33raptorme too


16:00:02fordcars:)


16:00:20JeffMBme three.


16:00:41JeffMBi don't code c++. i hack c++ :P


16:00:44JeffMBlel


16:00:53fordcarsI couldn't get the c++ std to link under Ubuntu


16:01:00JeffMB:l


16:01:05fordcars:l


16:01:06JeffMBawe fordy


16:01:07JeffMB:c


16:01:16JeffMBalso why the hell am i still using windows


16:01:28fordcarsBecause


16:01:42JeffMBVS 2013 is just so sexy :c


16:02:32fordcarsI hate Vs since I discovered dynamic libraries haha


16:02:37fordcarsBut Windows isn't bad


16:02:40JeffMBha!


16:03:08JeffMBafter i scrape Torque2D to the bare min, i gotta add cmake support.


16:03:10JeffMBthis will be fun.


16:03:13fordcarsPlus, I picked up a cool monitor for 5$


16:03:17JeffMB"fun"


16:03:33JeffMBya those plebbags didn't use a build system in torque. they just commited their project files.


16:03:37fordcarsCmake is cool, never figured what it really was doing though haha


16:04:18fordcarsOh, and btw http://www.simple2d.com/ is cool, simplified SDL


16:04:50fordcarsOh, supports Rpi too, nice


16:08:11JeffMB"only 140 bugs to fix for SDL 2.0.4"


16:08:16JeffMBsounds like torque3d.


16:15:10raptorif i ever get this GL abstraction layer done, i may consider going full SDL2 and removing the SDL 1.2 code


16:20:23JeffMBi thought you already used SDL2 because u had it compiled for ppc :P


16:22:00raptoryes


16:22:27raptorLinux is the only platform still using SDL2


16:22:37raptorsorry, still using SDL 1.2


16:22:50raptorbut SDL2 has been defaulted for the last release


16:25:52JeffMBah okay


16:26:25JeffMBya Torque2D doesn't use any SDL at all. those poor souls ported all 6 platforms with native platform code.


16:27:17JeffMBi think linux was using sdl, and someone took out the SDL and ported all of the x86Unix layer himself,


16:27:18JeffMBidk why


16:33:38raptorreduction of dependencies is a good idea in libraries


16:45:56fordcarsSdl sounds fun though


16:57:04JeffMBwoo cleand out a shitload of 2d specifics


16:57:07JeffMBnow to box2d!


17:03:37JeffMByess 10K errors


17:03:39JeffMBthats right


17:03:45JeffMBfeel the errors flowing through your veins


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17:22:28fordcarslol


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18:11:52raptorsomeday we may move to a real physics engine


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18:47:58JeffMBhighly recommend box2d


18:48:00JeffMBseems to be "the shit"


18:49:24raptori looked into it once, but it seemed like it'd be difficult to retro-fit with what we have


18:49:41raptorspecifically, i was interested in its object database for faster queries


18:49:57JeffMBis there any need for a physics engine though?


18:50:20raptorsure there is - like managing collisions


18:50:30raptorand object searching, of course


18:50:37JeffMBah


19:09:04fordcarsAnybody knows what happened to sky? He hasn't released the contest results yet...


19:09:23raptorhe sent me a message a little while ago...  let me see


19:10:10raptorok, the last message was from 21 Feb.


19:10:15raptorhe said he got a job


19:11:28fordcarsOh sweet


19:12:12raptorand he was hoping to post the results by the end of February...


19:17:08fordcars:/


19:32:35JeffMB is now known as JeffMB[afk]


20:00:28JeffMB[afk] is now known as JeffMB


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20:51:53raptori definitely broke something with the render system:  http://sam6.25u.com/upload/9screenshot_4.png


21:01:50JeffMBraptor that means ur doing it right when u get stuff like that


21:01:51JeffMB;)


21:55:55BFLogBot Commit: 4b5d2c8447 | Author: buckyballreaction | Message: Consolidate some more rendering blocks into the GL* object


21:55:58raptorthere, fixed it


22:08:35JeffMB:)


22:08:44JeffMBim happy to see you guys aren't using immediate mode


22:11:13raptorhad to ditch that for GLES 1.1 compat


22:11:29raptorbaby steps to GLES 2...


22:29:54JeffMByep


22:30:02JeffMBGLES 2.0 has no ffp either


22:30:11JeffMBafaik


22:32:20raptorthis has one of the best intros to migrating GL:  https://wiki.maemo.org/OpenGL-ES


22:32:23raptorit's old, though


22:34:05JeffMB" Finally, porting OpenGL 1.0 or OpenGL ES 1.1 applications to OpenGL ES 2.0 requires a rewrite to replace fixed function API usage with programmable shaders. "


22:34:08JeffMBsounds bout right


22:35:13JeffMBwould make porting easier if u used VBOs instead of client side vertex arrays hehehee


22:35:30raptormany people say that, but fail to give an example :)


22:37:35raptorbecause the code looks identical except for a few extra calls at the front


22:37:54raptorand i think all the APIs are the same so don't need porting


22:38:04raptorbut then again, i'm new at some of this...


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23:32:47raptorneat site!:  http://docs.gl/


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23:59:45raptorngiht!


23:59:49raptor Quit ()

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