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Ranks

PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:51 pm
by Skybax
I posted this on the Google Code for the development team, but I also wanted to post it on the Forums to get the community's opinion.

The new addition of a primitive ranks system in 019a (little green numbers I'm told somehow represent number of games played ever) has made me think a bit more about this.
While the green numbers are an excellent start to some sort of ranking system, I have some suggestions.
Rather than just be based on numbers alone, I think a form of XP would be better. Each rank up would require a larger amount of XP than the last. This way, you can use multiple stats to determine ranks, instead of just games played.
Also, since the Stats are organized on a monthly basis, would it not make sense for the Ranks to be reset each month to reflect the current month's stats? Then you'll never hit the ceiling. Each month you can start gaining ranks anew.
I've attached a document explaining the Ranking system I've suggested.
Ranks
Rank 0 is the basic rank. You have 0xp, you are Rank 0
Rank 1 requires 10xp. This should be relatively easy to achieve
The next Ranks would require the following, from Rank 2 upwards:
50xp, 120xp, 300xp, 600xp, 1000xp, 1500xp, 2500xp, 5000xp, 10000xp
As you can see, the Ranks become increasingly more difficult to achieve
Perhaps there could be a badge for being able to reach Rank 10?

Experience Points
Many games utilize experience points for leveling
These are the stats that I think should affect your XP, as well as how they should affect it
Flag Pickups - 2xp
Flag Returns - 1xp
Flag Scores - 5xp
Kills - 2xp
Suicides - -1xp
Games Played - 5xp
Games Won - 10xp
Ties - 5xp
Points - 1xp
FFs and Turrets Killed - 1xp (Only if non-regen)
Distance Traveled - 1xp/per 1000
If you get in the top 3 at the end of the month of any statistic at all,
you get a bonus 10xp, 30xp, or 50xp at the start of the next month, depending on if you came in 3rd, 2nd, or 1st
This encourages people to aim for all kinds of things, instead of just kills or flags

For example, my current Rank for the month of February would be Rank 5 with 758xp

44 + 2 + 165 + 110 - 1 + 105 + 80 + 55 + 100 + 9 + 29 + 10 + 50 = 758

The weapons as of now have no "Top" (compared to other players) but if they did, they could also be weighed in to the count


It would also be really cool if little "+1xp!" things popped up when you gained XP, with green font :D

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:15 pm
by Fordcars
Skybax wrote:reset each month to reflect the current month's stats

+1

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:31 pm
by Skybax
For fun, raptor would be at Rank 6 with 1372xp for the month of February :D

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:27 pm
by sky_lark
I like it. I think there ought to be more formal rank names, and you should get a badge for every rank attained. As soon as you "level up" the badge for the old rank is replaced by the badge for the new rank.

Or maybe you get a badge at "checkpoints" - Level 1, 5, 10 for example.

Some of those numbers might have to fluctuate a little in order to provide for strong balance... but it looks really good.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:26 pm
by Skybax
sky_lark wrote:I like it. I think there ought to be more formal rank names, and you should get a badge for every rank attained. As soon as you "level up" the badge for the old rank is replaced by the badge for the new rank.

This would be the optimal Ranking system, in my opinion (if you look at the Issue for it in Google Code you'll see I've suggested Rank titles and graphics Here)
For now, though, this would work with the current number's system and wouldn't require making graphics for a bunch of new badges :D

Thanks for the feedback! If you have any suggestions regarding the math (to provide balance and such) feel free to speak up.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:47 pm
by amgine
No Having your rank reset for each much would not work as you would have to spend a long time just to get your rank back i think ranks should be permanent As it would get annoying having to re reach level 10 over and over..... Also i Dont think rank should be determined by level alone moreso a combination of stats and levels.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:07 pm
by Fordcars
I always liked Bitfighter being "anybody can play" and not having any hierarchy. That's just my opinion though

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:09 pm
by amgine
Yeah but if you want to balance teams in matches you need to know someones skill level....

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:52 pm
by Quartz
Fordcars wrote:I always liked Bitfighter being "anybody can play" and not having any hierarchy. That's just my opinion though

This.

Great idea guys, let's discourage new players even more. Thus making the game less accessible.

Some days I truly wonder why I bother.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:18 am
by Skybax
amgine wrote:No Having your rank reset for each much would not work as you would have to spend a long time just to get your rank back i think ranks should be permanent As it would get annoying having to re reach level 10 over and over..... Also i Dont think rank should be determined by level alone moreso a combination of stats and levels.

You talk as if getting to Rank 10 is an easy task. If there's an end, then there's a loss of interest.
Also... Isn't that what I've demonstrated..? The ranks would be determined entirely by your stats..
amgine wrote:Yeah but if you want to balance teams in matches you need to know someones skill level....

This is what the KDR is for. It already works to distribute teams evenly, albeit a bit unreliabley.
Quartz wrote:Great idea guys, let's discourage new players even more. Thus making the game less accessible.

I don't see how this would discourage new players. Not only does it immediately give them something to work towards (since Bitfighter has no form of unlockables besides badges, and most of them are far from easy to get), but as the first few ranks are super easy to achieve, they would also see almost immediate progress. Idk about you, but being rewarded for playing seems like an incentive to me, not a discouragement.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:49 pm
by Quartz
Skybax wrote:I don't see how this would discourage new players. Not only does it immediately give them something to work towards (since Bitfighter has no form of unlockables besides badges, and most of them are far from easy to get), but as the first few ranks are super easy to achieve, they would also see almost immediate progress. Idk about you, but being rewarded for playing seems like an incentive to me, not a discouragement.
That all depends on a person's personality. For some people you are quite right. I know for me, I'm overly competitive, but also self-conscious and unconfident, so Halo 3's ranking system actually made the game far less enjoyable for me, and furthermore incredibly stressful. Sad thing is, Halo 3's ranking system was actually pretty good as far as ranking systems go.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:00 pm
by Skybax
Quartz wrote:
Skybax wrote:I don't see how this would discourage new players. Not only does it immediately give them something to work towards (since Bitfighter has no form of unlockables besides badges, and most of them are far from easy to get), but as the first few ranks are super easy to achieve, they would also see almost immediate progress. Idk about you, but being rewarded for playing seems like an incentive to me, not a discouragement.
That all depends on a person's personality. For some people you are quite right. I know for me, I'm overly competitive, but also self-conscious and unconfident, so Halo 3's ranking system actually made the game far less enjoyable for me, and furthermore incredibly stressful. Sad thing is, Halo 3's ranking system was actually pretty good as far as ranking systems go.

Well seeing as how successful the Halo franchise is, I'd say your view on Ranks being stressful and discouraging is the minority view ;)

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:25 pm
by Quartz
Skybax wrote:
Quartz wrote:
Skybax wrote:I don't see how this would discourage new players. Not only does it immediately give them something to work towards (since Bitfighter has no form of unlockables besides badges, and most of them are far from easy to get), but as the first few ranks are super easy to achieve, they would also see almost immediate progress. Idk about you, but being rewarded for playing seems like an incentive to me, not a discouragement.
That all depends on a person's personality. For some people you are quite right. I know for me, I'm overly competitive, but also self-conscious and unconfident, so Halo 3's ranking system actually made the game far less enjoyable for me, and furthermore incredibly stressful. Sad thing is, Halo 3's ranking system was actually pretty good as far as ranking systems go.

Well seeing as how successful the Halo franchise is, I'd say your view on Ranks being stressful and discouraging is the minority view ;)
An excellent point.

That said, there was a LOT of stigma about ranking in Halo 3. It compelled a lot of people, although it also seemed to bring some of the worst out of people as they bickered about it all.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:48 am
by Skybax
FPS's are notorious for having multiplayer bases full of whiney ten year olds, though.. So that may be a major cause of all the bickering. I really can't see anyone in this community bickering about ranks..

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:17 am
by Quartz
Skybax wrote:FPS's are notorious for having multiplayer bases full of whiney ten year olds, though.. So that may be a major cause of all the bickering. I really can't see anyone in this community bickering about ranks..

...I'm not sure whether that last line was intended to be ironic or not.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:58 am
by watusimoto
While the green numbers are an excellent start to some sort of ranking system
Well, it's a start... not sure how excellent it is :-)

Your proposal is the most comprehensive and good to date. I also like the idea of the floating +2xp text when you are awarded xp; I think that would be a nice flourish.

Stats are not tracked on a monthly basis, but they can be presented as if they are. We actually track stats on an eternal basis, and can recalculate them as needed (daily, weekly, monthly, etc.). I do not necessarily think that it makes sense to reset ranks monthly, especially if they are going to be attached to some sort of badge or trophy (part of the original plan for the ranks that got shelved for 019a, but may be revived in the future as we refine the rank concept further).

As for the issue of Bitfighter being a game "anyone can play", I totally agree this is an important concept. I don't think having a badge or similar that recognizes longevity necessarily runs counter to this, as it will provide no gameplay advantage, and doesn't really establish a hierarchy any more than the post counts in the forums do. Hell, if it became a problem, we could provide a way for individual players to disable it.

It might be an interesting exercise to run a database query using skybax's scoring system and see how thing shook out.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:09 am
by Skybax
watusimoto wrote:I do not necessarily think that it makes sense to reset ranks monthly, especially if they are going to be attached to some sort of badge or trophy (part of the original plan for the ranks that got shelved for 019a, but may be revived in the future as we refine the rank concept further).

I agree that, if ranks were to be displayed using a badge that simply changed as you ranked up, resetting each month wouldn't make sense. However, it could work with the current green number system.

Also, I don't know how else to reward people for getting in the top three, unless those bonuses still went monthly while the overall XP gain stayed constant and eternal. That's an idea.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:19 pm
by Fordcars
watusimoto wrote:As for the issue of Bitfighter being a game "anyone can play", I totally agree this is an important concept. I don't think having a badge or similar that recognizes longevity necessarily runs counter to this, as it will provide no gameplay advantage, and doesn't really establish a hierarchy any more than the post counts in the forums do. Hell, if it became a problem, we could provide a way for individual players to disable it.

It might be an interesting exercise to run a database query using skybax's scoring system and see how thing shook out.


+1

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:59 pm
by Lone Wolf
Although obvious, the text that shows +XP should be rendered only client side.

As for level indicators, you could have it be something like this: "<icon><levelnumber>Lone Wolf" and have the level and icon be in superscript (as like the 2 when you write 3 squared an the tiny 2 is above it) before the players name underneath their ship. And, you might be able to move the K/D indicator to the very edge on the scoreboard and squeeze in a little "Lv. x" indicator? And on this topic - the icon for the level could be next to the indicator in the style of a badge (square outline with icon inside)

And for actually getting the XP, not only kills should count, but objectives (flag cap, destroy core, zone capture) and assists should give XP as well.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:05 pm
by Skybax
Lone Wolf wrote:Although obvious, the text that shows +XP should be rendered only client side.

Why? For lagging reasons? I think it would be awesome to see whenever anyone gets XP!
Lone Wokf wrote:And for actually getting the XP, not only kills should count, but objectives (flag cap, destroy core, zone capture) and assists should give XP as well.

Did you read the document? All this has been accounted for... Or at least the ones available on Kaen's stats page.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:59 am
by Lone Wolf
Skybax wrote:
Lone Wolf wrote:Although obvious, the text that shows +XP should be rendered only client side.

Why? For lagging reasons? I think it would be awesome to see whenever anyone gets XP!

Well I was thinking of dungeons, when people are shooting asteriods nonstop with bursts and triples and stuff, all you would see is +1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 all. over. the screen.
Skybax wrote:
Lone Wokf wrote:And for actually getting the XP, not only kills should count, but objectives (flag cap, destroy core, zone capture) and assists should give XP as well.

"Lone Wokf wrote"
.-.
EDIT: I drew up a little picture demonstrating what my envisionment of the Rank system would be like in-game:
Image
The part with the box and the X would be the icon for whatever rank it would be.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:26 pm
by Skybax
I don't think asteroid kills are tracked, so you wouldn't get XP for breaking an asteroid.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:41 am
by watusimoto
We tried really hard to find a set of 9 rank icons that would look good when presented in the manner you suggest. You have very few pixels to work with... can you come up with 9 10x10 icons that you'd actually want to see attached to every ship, and that are understandable?

The +5XP stuff could be a cool thing, as long as it weren't too frequent.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:08 pm
by amgine
what about players who have already been playing BF should they get a base exp boost for playing longer already ?

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:11 pm
by Quartz
amgine wrote:what about players who have already been playing BF should they get a base exp boost for playing longer already ?

Umm. No.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:01 pm
by Skybax
Quartz wrote:
amgine wrote:what about players who have already been playing BF should they get a base exp boost for playing longer already ?

Umm. No.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:15 am
by sky_lark
Skybax wrote:
Quartz wrote:
amgine wrote:what about players who have already been playing BF should they get a base exp boost for playing longer already ?

Umm. No.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:47 am
by Little_Apple
amgine wrote:what about players who have already been playing BF should they get a base exp boost for playing longer already ?

You only get an XP boost if you buy special promotional Bitfighter cans of Mountain Dew.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:54 am
by Lone Wolf
sky_lark wrote:
Skybax wrote:
Quartz wrote:
amgine wrote:what about players who have already been playing BF should they get a base exp boost for playing longer already ?

Umm. No.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:36 pm
by Fordcars
Little_Apple wrote:
amgine wrote:what about players who have already been playing BF should they get a base exp boost for playing longer already ?

You only get an XP boost if you buy special promotional Bitfighter cans of Mountain Dew.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:35 pm
by sky_lark
Fordcars wrote:
Little_Apple wrote:
amgine wrote:what about players who have already been playing BF should they get a base exp boost for playing longer already ?

You only get an XP boost if you buy special promotional Bitfighter cans of Mountain Dew.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:24 pm
by Skybax
sky_lark wrote:
Fordcars wrote:
Little_Apple wrote:
amgine wrote:what about players who have already been playing BF should they get a base exp boost for playing longer already ?

You only get an XP boost if you buy special promotional Bitfighter cans of Mountain Dew.

I would buy that so hard.

Re: Ranks

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:50 am
by amgine
Anyways back on topic.....,

I think a EXP system with levels somthing along the line with Y=10(x^2) for each level (With no cap) would be best this whould show a players experine on how longthey have played....

Also I think there should be a Rating system something like Chess's ELO system that would show a players skill at the time this would greatly give people a good way to compete for rank.......