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furbuggy

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Post Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:58 pm

Balancing

So, I've looked into the balancing in bitfighter a lot, and I've asked around. Here are my opinions:

Weapons:
A lot of people say that phaser is over-powered, but I don't think it is. In any given circumstance, phasers do OK, but in most circumstances, a different weapon could actually do better.

Triples are just a little over powered, considering that now it only takes 2 dead-on shots to zap someone. It should be increased to roughly 2.33, so if my math is right, the shots should do about 85% of what they do now.

Bouncers no longer have the longest range in the game-- I think they should.

Bursts and mines are great as are. I'm a little nostalgic for when bursts could clear mines, but I can see why you did it.

Seekers should be bigger, just because they are so easy to use. They are easily countered with shield, but we shouldn't *assume* that people are using shields.

-------

Modules:
Boost and shield are classic, and I like them the way they are.

Cloak is good.

Some people complain that enhanced sensor reveals cloak-- they point out that it's the only example in the game where one module cancels another module out. I tend to agree. What if cloaked ships entering your screen set off an exclamation mark above your ship (if you have sensors enabled), so that you knew that a cloaked ship was near by, but you didn't know where exactly? This signal would go away if the cloaked ship left your field of view.

Armor I like. Repair I never have liked. Together they are obscene-- and this is REALLY the reason I started this thread. Armor+repair, is seriously broken.


First, let's look at armor. A truly passive module, armor costs no energy and increases your maximum health. To balance this, "wearing" armor makes the acceleration of your ship all wonky, meaning that navigating is really really hard. This seems to be a fair balance. Some people still seem to think that armor is a little OP, and they say it should cost energy. Obviously, the whole point of armor is that it's passive, so I don't think it should cost energy (besides, how would that work?). Instead I suggested that maybe armor should *reduce your maximum energy*. Said critics seemed to really like this idea. However, I think that armor is fine, as long as it is not combined with repair-- which I think is OP regardless.

REPAIR::::
Repair, in my opinion, has been the most consistently annoying thing in this game. The main cause of this is that map makers often put too many repairable items in their maps-- but that's by no means the only problem. Consider a 2v1 or a 3v2 match-up. A team with one extra player can just dedicate them to repair their base, and that will almost surely put the nail in the coffin. But setting aside those minor grievances of mine, the worst thing about repair is that when grouped with armor, a person can heal damage almost as fast as they take it, and easily outlast whomever is attacking them-- then heal up to full their abnormally high maximum health again. It seems like repair must repair by percentage and not a flat rate.

It is well accepted that repair+armor is OP. The question is how to fix it. First, no matter what other fixes are made, repair should heal a flat rate, not a percentage (if that's even a thing). Second, we could either have armor decrease your maximum energy, and possibly make repair cost more energy per second; we could make it so repair does not heal the ship that is using it; or possibly we could come up with another solution.
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Fordcars

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Post Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:17 pm

Re: Balancing

furbuggy wrote:Some people complain that enhanced sensor reveals cloak-- they point out that it's the only example in the game where one module cancels another module out. I tend to agree. What if cloaked ships entering your screen set off an exclamation mark above your ship (if you have sensors enabled), so that you knew that a cloaked ship was near by, but you didn't know where exactly? This signal would go away if the cloaked ship left your field of view.
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amgine

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Post Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:54 pm

Re: Balancing

Here are my thoughts

Weapons.

Phaser is ok.

Bouncer could have the same stats as the phaser but at 1.25 more energy and have more range damage is way to low. possible could do no self daamge is energy was say x2 or x3 would need mroe testing

Triple : Energy use is way to high could have a tiny bit more spread and range.

Burst. : Balanced is fine.

Mine : Should not damage teammates energy needs to be way lower maybe 4-6 mines instead of 1-2

Seeker : Way to strong energy usage needs to be way higher its to easy to spam them maybe make them weaker but indestoryable.


Modules

Shield: DONT CHANGE

Turbo could be nice to have a higher boost distance cap if there was a way to adjsut your boost distance needs way lower energy usage more knockback on player would be nice.

Repair : Not strong enough its impossible to repair you base faster then it is being destroyed BY A SINGLE PLAYER repairing is to slow could use a double tap high heal for more energy as a trade off...

Cloak : Maybe a tad lower energy usage other then that is fine.

Sensor : Useless needs a mega buff more range and harder to kill and have a 5-7 sensor cap for 100% energy

Armor : Was Fixed in build 20 no change needed.

Engeneer : Lower Energy to create and and allow for creation on polywall and barriers.
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Skybax

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Post Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:50 pm

Re: Balancing

furbuggy wrote:It's the only example in the game where one module cancels another module out

Shield literally cancels out everything. You're flipping invincible.
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amgine

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Post Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:02 am

Re: Balancing

Here is a idea sheilds have a "health" gauge and if it breaks you cant use it for X seconds until it auto repairs itself OR you die....
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furbuggy

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Post Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:29 pm

Re: Balancing

Skybax wrote:
furbuggy wrote:It's the only example in the game where one module cancels another module out

Shield literally cancels out everything. You're flipping invincible.



Naw, it cancels damage out. It doesn't cancel out any modules.
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watusimoto

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Post Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:23 pm

Re: Balancing

Bouncers have a super-long range if you bounce them. Every time they hit a wall, they gain a little range (with limits, of course).

I want to change the way armor works -- I'd like to make it not impact movement, but instead be depletable... after a certain number of hits, it gets destroyed. I'm thinking each "face" would have independent hitpoints, and could be destroyed separately.

And I want to enhance repair so that when you have it, you get a little energy back each time you kill. Or, maybe, that ability should go to sensor?
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Skybax

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Post Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:32 am

Re: Balancing

watusimoto wrote:After a certain number of hits, it gets destroyed. I'm thinking each "face" would have independent hitpoints, and could be destroyed separately.
And I want to enhance repair so that when you have it, you get a little energy back each time you kill.

I love both of these ideas.
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furbuggy

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Post Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:56 pm

Re: Balancing

Could you make it so that repair doesn't heal the user himself unless they get a kill? Because right now armor+repair is broken. Nerfing that is my main concern. Probably should have made the post completely about that.

I kind of like how armor is now but your idea of it being like a personal "core" is kind of cool too.
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Quartz

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Post Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:46 pm

Re: Balancing

watusimoto wrote:I want to change the way armor works -- I'd like to make it not impact movement, but instead be depletable... after a certain number of hits, it gets destroyed. I'm thinking each "face" would have independent hitpoints, and could be destroyed separately.

That is a very cool idea, wat. I like it.

watusimoto wrote:And I want to enhance repair so that when you have it, you get a little energy back each time you kill. Or, maybe, that ability should go to sensor?

That's not a bad idea either. I kind of like furbuggy's further idea of making it so that's the only way to repair oneself. Of course, if that were done, one would likely want it to be like a half health heal or something substantial like that.

But if that were done I would really, really want Repair to actually be viable to use on teammates. As is, you have to be ridiculously close, and let's be honest, in the middle of combat and/or maneuvering it is completely impossible to repair a teammate reliably. The only solution right now is for two teammates to stop altogether and heal up, which only encourages camping.

I realize there is the potential argument of "but repairing teammates in the middle of combat would be overpowered!" but let's be real, it couldn't be any harder to kill that guy who's being repaired than the people who currently repair themselves in the middle of combat (and die horribly unless they're dodging well, too … it's certainly no substitute for Shield).

I don't know if the solution to this problem is to extend the range of the beam, add a pulse function, or what. I just know that making repair viable to use on teammates in the middle of maneuvering and/or combat would make the game a lot more team-oriented in a more practical sense, and I reckon we all want that.
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Skybax

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Post Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: Balancing

Quartz wrote:extend the range of the beam

This is an amazing idea that idk why nobody has thought of.

Think of a healer in basically any game. They always do it from a distance. If you could repair teammates (not turrets or ffs) from a longer distance, that would make repair immensely more useful in team based combat. Everyone needs a good healer!

FYI I've been playing ESO for the past week so I know the importance of a healer lol
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amgine

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Post Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:23 am

Re: Balancing

Ok here are my thoughts.

Heal : Should have increased range but at the cost of a slower heal rate for example if you are really close you heal faster then when you are farther away.

Armor : Should be left as is ecexpt for the fact it should not take up a module slot and its default effect would be passive ( we would need a new module.) perhaps you can temporarly give other players nearby armor for like 5 seconds like repair.

Shield : Should be depletable (after it takes 30 damage it cannot be used for 10 seconds.) As said it makes you invincible to everything which im afraid inherently hurts other modules usefulness and will make it more favored.

Phaser : Is ok maybe a tiny bit less range on it.

Bouncer Should be buffed its damage is way to low to be useful right now perhaps give it the same stats as a faster but at the cost of x3 or x4 more energy. ( about 1/2-2/3 the shot time.)

Triple : Its energy usage is way to high and needs more range its abysmal in multiplayer as you have to get close to get a kill and then the player can jsut sheild.

Burst : Damage could be a tad higher perhaps .67 of a health gauge on a direct hit.

Mine : Energy usage is way to high should be able to use it 5-7 times before depleted energy should not damage self and team due to the fact it hinders gameplay as you and your teammates must take the time to detour around the mines and encourages trolling.

Seeker : Needs a horrible Nerf its energy usage is way to low and its easy to spam about 20 of them before you run out of energy combine that with 6 players and its impossible to dodge even with the sheild perhaps make it slighly more retarded Ie if you move so far out of range it will not dedect a player.
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furbuggy

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Post Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:13 pm

Re: Balancing

Okay, one thing I liked about Zap! was that everything was very simple. Each module did one specific thing and did it in the most basic, straightforward way.

As a result, I'm not a huge fan of a depletable set of armor, or a vampire-passive repair. They just seem a little complicated.

Here's a question though: if we were going to have a depletable set of armor, how would that work with loadouts? I mean, if my armor is all dinged up, could I just go and switch out for a shield?

As it stands though, I do like the idea of increasing the range of repair and getting rid of self- repair. Though it means that some of the levels with lots of repairables can get even... less fun for me, let's say.
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amgine

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Post Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:27 am

Re: Balancing

I think armor should be passive and not take up a slot So there can be some other modules added to it.

you would have to go find a loadoutzone to change which you would probably get zapped anyways.

I think if anything Shields should be depleatable due to the fact they make you invincible to everything.

I think Self repair should stay its not to broken and was a original part of ZAP.

I still support a double tap quick heal sometimes it just takes way to long to heal and you cannot build your defenses as well as giving it more range.
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furbuggy

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Post Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:33 pm

Re: Balancing

Repair+armor is the only broken thing in bitfighter right now. Armor is fun the way it is, and I think it should probably stay the way it is.

Repair can stand to be fiddled with more. I say, increase the range so that it can heal allies more strategically but make it so that it doesn't self heal.

If we want to keep repair generally the way it is, then I think that armor should repair more slowly, OR that armor should lower your maximum energy in exchange for being a passive boost to health.
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amgine

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Post Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:05 am

Re: Balancing

amgine wrote:Ok here are my thoughts.

Heal : Should have increased range but at the cost of a slower heal rate for example if you are really close you heal faster then when you are farther away.

Armor : Should be left as is except for the fact it should not take up a module slot and its default effect would be passive ( we would need a new module.) perhaps you can temporarily give other players nearby armor for like 5 seconds like repair.

Shield : Should be depletable (after it takes 30 damage it cannot be used for 10 seconds.) As said it makes you invincible to everything which im afraid inherently hurts other modules usefulness and will make it more favored.

Phaser : Is ok maybe a tiny bit less range on it.

Bouncer Should be buffed its damage is way to low to be useful right now perhaps give it the same damage as a phaser and more range but at the cost of x3 or x4 more energy. ( about 1/2-2/3 the shot time.)

Triple : Its energy usage is way to high and needs more range its abysmal in multiplayer as you have to get close to get a kill and then the player can just shield.

Burst : Damage could be a tad higher perhaps .67 of a health gauge on a direct hit.

Mine : Energy usage is way to high should be able to use it 5-7 times before depleted energy should not damage self and team due to the fact it hinders gameplay as you and your teammates must take the time to detour around the mines and encourages trolling.

Seeker : Needs a horrible Nerf its energy usage is way to low and its easy to spam about 20 of them before you run out of energy combine that with 6 players and its impossible to dodge even with the shield perhaps make it slightly more retarded Ie if you move so far out of range it will not detect a player.


Any other thoughts anyone wants to put out?
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watusimoto

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Post Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:38 pm

Re: Balancing

I imagine depletable armor would get a full and instant repair when you flew through a friendly loadout zone.

Also, if armor/self-repair is a problem, we could remove self-repair ability when you have armor, but leave it otherwise as-is.
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Little_Apple

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Post Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:17 pm

Re: Balancing

watusimoto wrote:I imagine depletable armor would get a full and instant repair when you flew through a friendly loadout zone.

Also, if armor/self-repair is a problem, we could remove self-repair ability when you have armor, but leave it otherwise as-is.

If armor doubles the amount of health one ship has, why not make it so it takes twice as long to fully heal with repair?
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Fordcars

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Post Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:21 pm

Re: Balancing

Little_Apple wrote:If armor doubles the amount of health one ship has, why not make it so it takes twice as long to fully heal with repair?


Why haven't we thought of this before
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watusimoto

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Post Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:43 pm

Re: Balancing

Maybe you'd have to heal your armor before healing your ship? However, you could get around that by changing your loadout to something else, then back to armor to get a full recharge.
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amgine

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Post Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:27 pm

Re: Balancing

some more ideas

Maybe you could try have armor be passive and not take a module slot and replace the other module slot with a different module.

I had a idea for a module that was a "use less energy for stuff module" or a "Regen energy faster module" (which would compliment repair) maybe call it Solorite or something"

I think it should not be repairable and instead be broken until X seconds have passed or you have died then you get it back it might be better then just having to heal longer for stuff..... ( want peoples opinion on this has no one has commented on it so im assuming your against it but I want to know why.)

I agree we definitely need more range on repair as well as a double tap quick repair ability....
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Skybax

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Post Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:36 pm

Re: Balancing

When did LA become the wisest person on the forum
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amgine

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Post Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:59 pm

Re: Balancing

Another interesting note I think I should all be 1 shield and in "panels" still would be to OP."

I also I think it should be breakable as I described I want feedback why its a bad idea......

still think mines or turrets should not damage teammates....or your own team
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furbuggy

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Post Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:59 pm

Re: Balancing

amgine wrote:Another interesting note I think I should all be 1 shield and in "panels" still would be to OP."

I also I think it should be breakable as I described I want feedback why its a bad idea......



Sorry, not really sure what you're trying to say, could you clarify?

The reason I think it's not a good idea for shield to be breakable is because I think the mechanics of this game should be very simple and basic. Saying "shield costs energy but negates damage" is much simpler than "the shield costs energy but takes damage for you, when it is destroyed you have to wait for it to regenerate".


Again, I agree with LA, fordcars and skybax who all seem to be saying that repair should restore a flat amount of health/sec, rather than a % of health/sec.
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amgine

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Post Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:06 am

Re: Balancing

Problem is most modules have negative side effects like cloak you are vulnerable to getting shot or armor you have a slip penalty shield has no negative side effects and makes you invincible having your shield "break" would balance it out considerably notable since over 99% of games are used with shield.

Is this possible to try with a Levelgen or something to see how viable it is or would it have to get a separate test buld?
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Skybax

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:21 am

Re: Balancing

I think the drawback with shield is that it uses a crapload of energy.
Sure it makes you invincible and if you use it right it can be quite hard to beat. But it only lasts for like, what, three or four seconds nonstop? Even less if you take any offensive measures at all?

Obviously, if you don't use a shield, don't play the game like you have one and you won't die as much.

Shield is literally only good for close quarters combat where you hope your opponent's energy runs out before yours does. It doesn't last long enough to allow you to chase someone down through their bullet stream (unless you use boost which is even more of a gamble).

I can get away from you by using cloak way better than a shield.
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