[Split] Knockback Weapon

I had an idea for a turret weapon that was short range. I called it the "knockback". It might be interesting to apply this concept to ships.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=661&p=4634#p4634

The knockback weapon is the opposite of a magnet type weapon, which pulls ships closer. The knockback would push ships away. I think pushing away would actually have more value than pulling. If I want to engage the enemy, I'll do it at a reasonable distance. I rarely want the enemy to come to me.

Pushing away, however, could have strategic value. Two ships enter a base. One ship charges ahead, knocking enemy players out of range while the other takes the flag.

Or a ship hides behind a corner, cloaking. Wait for an enemy to come by, then push that enemy into a nearby pile of mines.

Or perhaps your teammate with the flag is weak, and being attacked. Knock your teammate away from the battle and get him/her to safety.

The other cool thing about a knockback weapon (or a magnet type weapon) is that unlike other weapons, it is not directly aggressive. Additionally, I'd consider it to be short range. The closer you are to a knockback "blast", then farther you will be knocked back. The farther you are from the blast, the farther you will be knocked back.

[Skybax]

So it's like a blind suicidal spybug?

(dont want to put all the quote)
I dont understood, well.
1. Does it pusher your allies, you or your enemies?
2. Is it a charging weapon?
3. is it kind of a spy-bug that explodes?
4. Do you like PopTarts?
All those Questions are Important

1. The Knockback would push all players, bots, and floating objects (asteroids, resourceitems, testitems, soccer balls).

2. I don't know exactly how it would work, I haven't really thought that far. I think it probably should need to be charged.

3. Eh, it's a stretch, but I guess you could say that. But only because both knock back players. The Knockback is different in many ways... but perhaps most importantly it allows you to control where the target ends up. Whereas with a spybug explosion, there's no telling where your target will go.

4. Yup!

(dont want to put all the quote)
I dont understood, well.
1. Does it pusher your allies, you or your enemies?
2. Is it a charging weapon?
3. is it kind of a spy-bug that explodes?
4. Do you like PopTarts?
All those Questions are Important

1. The Knockback would push all players, bots, and floating objects (asteroids, resourceitems, testitems, soccer balls).

2. I don't know exactly how it would work, I haven't really thought that far. I think it probably should need to be charged.

3. Eh, it's a stretch, but I guess you could say that. But only because both knock back players. The Knockback is different in many ways... but perhaps most importantly it allows you to control where the target ends up. Whereas with a spybug explosion, there's no telling where your target will go.

4. Yup!

Seems similar to burst, it knockbacks back people if you aim it right; however, it can knock you back. What's the downfall of your knockback and is it aoe?

Seems similar to burst, it knockbacks back people if you aim it right; however, it can knock you back. What's the downfall of your knockback and is it aoe?

Burster is iffy at best. It doesn't discriminate against any player -- anybody nearby in any direction will be affected. That's the problem. Burster is too difficult to control strategically. Additionally, because there is a delay in the explosion your attempts at a knock back could be sabotaged (by an enemy running into the projectile and knocking it off course).

A downfall to the Knockback weapon might be improper use. I think of the Knockback as being a very strategic weapon, and using it in a bad location could have undesired results. For example, if walls were to block the output from a Knockback blast, then you wouldn't want to use the Knockback weapon in an environment littered with walls.

Not sure what you mean by "aoe".

Knockback weapon have a problem, knockback weapon is mostly useless when chasing an enemy, except to trap them in a corner. That gives a big advantage to players that are running away using knockback. That can make a bigger problem of not being able to chase and destroy an enemy.

That was kind of why I wanted magnet or laser weapon, to make it easier to destroy enemies running away.

Like all weapons, the Knockback would be designed for certain situations. Chasing an enemy is not one of those situations. The Knockback uses the unique concept of not dealing damage to your enemies, so it should be used primarily as a temporary offensive weapon or a defensive weapon.

The Knockback blast would be affected by momentum, so a player fleeing with the flag and shooting a Knockback blast in the opposite direction would not be very effective. That player would need to move back towards the chaser and fire the Knockback. It's a dangerous move, as if the player misses then they'll be in a world of trouble.

Since we have bursts, the knockback weapon seems like a redundant weapon.

Yeah, it does have similar properties as the burster, but must that be bad? I don't think we need six weapons with 100% different styles and uses. Furthermore, if implemented wisely, I think the Knockback weapon would feel and be used completely different than the burster.

Honestly I feel like I use burst the same way. (if you can aim burst well, it works well) Your idea of the knockback has no flaws of usefulness. It just seems too strong (OP). You said it does great damage when players already fairly die quickly in the game without shield. Also, it's more useful than burst from your opinions. No point for burst now...

Also, more importantly...specifically what trouble/s does the player have if they miss with the knockback? Also, what's the range/distance and radius within the blast (aoe: area of effect)?

"A downfall to the Knockback weapon might be improper use. I think of the Knockback as being a very strategic weapon, and using it in a bad location could have undesired results. For example, if walls were to block the output from a Knockback blast, then you wouldn't want to use the Knockback weapon in an environment littered with walls."
This isn't a good example because it doesn't specifically answer your own statement/my question. Results matter more than "want". (it seems vague)

[sam686]

Burster is iffy at best. It doesn't discriminate against any player -- anybody nearby in any direction will be affected. That's the problem.

Currently on Bitfighter 015a, Burst does not affect your team. Burst only affects enemies and yourself.

The Knockback blast would be affected by momentum, so a player fleeing with the flag and shooting a Knockback blast in the opposite direction would not be very effective. That player would need to move back towards the chaser and fire the Knockback. It's a dangerous move, as if the player misses then they'll be in a world of trouble.

The player running away have an easier aim at the chaser, especially in small paths, and can use shield and run away in a different direction, even when Knockback might fail. Easier to aim at chaser because it is easy to know where the chaser will go. Harder to aim at players running away that could go anywhere making it hard to predict. If a Knockback user pushes itself backwards, that may help speed up the player who is escaping.

Actually I think burst can affect your allies like S_Bots if they use shield, by pushing them. IF allies don't use shield, then no effects. You cannot team-kill without mines also.

Honestly I feel like I use burst the same way. (if you can aim burst well, it works well) Your idea of the knockback has no flaws of usefulness. It just seems too strong (OP). You said it does great damage when players already fairly die quickly in the game without shield. Also, it's more useful than burst from your opinions. No point for burst now...

You may be misunderstanding me -- the Knockback applies no direct damage to the other players whatsoever. The only way the Knockback could kill an enemy would be if it pushed them into a minefield, asteroid, or turret infested area. But all those would be indirect deaths.

Burster has a completely different set of purposes. They both result in blasts, but they are still very different weapons. Just like burster and bouncers both bounce off of walls, those two weapons are very different.

Burster can be fired more rapidly, and doesn't need to be charged or directed. Burster is also more effective if you're trapped -- simply send a projectile towards your enemy by bouncing it off a wall. Burster also deals direct damage, and can affect turrets or laserbeams (Knockback cannot).

If you can aim the burst projectile properly, then you should be good to go... to an extent. You can launch a burst and guess that these enemies are going to end up in that area over there, but it's not more specific than that. The Knockback will give you a much more accurate response.

Also, more importantly...specifically what trouble/s does the player have if they miss with the knockback? Also, what's the range/distance and radius within the blast (aoe: area of effect)?

Oh, I see. I think the trouble with firing and missing would stem from the fact that Knockback needs to be charged, and during that time you wouldn't be able to fire any other weapons (remember, Knockback is a weapon not a module).

So if you missed a enemy you A) wouldn't be able to fire another blast immediately and B) would have lost some energy from firing the blast. Perhaps there could also be a "delay" after firing a blast, so you couldn't immediately switch to another weapon.

As for the Area of Effect, I don't really know, because that would need to be fine-tuned in-game after testing. But to give you an idea, I'm thinking the blast would only be effective if used within a couple ship lengths of another player.

Think about a desktop fan. If you are standing in the middle and directly upon it, you will feel a lot of air. The farther back you are or to the side the less air you will feel. The main difference with a fan and the Knockback blast is that the blast would not wrap around a wall or object.

"A downfall to the Knockback weapon might be improper use. I think of the Knockback as being a very strategic weapon, and using it in a bad location could have undesired results. For example, if walls were to block the output from a Knockback blast, then you wouldn't want to use the Knockback weapon in an environment littered with walls."
This isn't a good example because it doesn't specifically answer your own statement/my question. Results matter more than "want". (it seems vague)

You're right, that was bad wording. What I'm trying to say is that being a weapon of strategic value, the Knockback could do more harm than good if fired improperly. Bad location, bad preparation, bad teamwork, etc. If used wisely, the Knockback is a great weapon. Whereas with other weapons as long as you're aiming at your enemy you can't really go wrong.

The other downfall could be what I described above, lack of ability to use weapons while charging, firing, and immediately after.

Broken into two posts for ease of reading. I'd also like to take a minute to apologize for any misunderstandings. I've got an idea of how this weapon would work in my head, but I haven't fully explained it in text, so I'm continually adding more and more details. Sorry for the confusion.

The player running away have an easier aim at the chaser, especially in small paths, and can use shield and run away in a different direction, even when Knockback might fail. Easier to aim at chaser because it is easy to know where the chaser will go.

That's correct, although I was thinking that the blast would only do its best if hit spot on.

I'll use the same fan analogy from above. If you are standing in the middle and directly upon it, you will feel a lot of air. The farther back you are or to the side the less air you will feel. The main difference with a fan and the Knockback blast is that the blast would not wrap around a wall or object.

Same idea here. The closer you are to the source of the blast the more you will be affected. Knowing that it takes time for the fleeing player to charge (and there should be an animation showing the charge), the chaser can prepare themselves to dodge out of the way if the fleeing player is coming back.

I think if the player has to charge a Knockback blast, and cannot use any other weapons during that time, that's a great opportunity for the chaser to try and catch up and even the odds.

Harder to aim at players running away that could go anywhere making it hard to predict.

Again, there's no value in using the Knockback against players running away, because the Knockback pushes, not pulls.

If a Knockback user pushes itself backwards, that may help speed up the player who is escaping.

You raise a good point with your last sentence, so I think to combat that the player who fired the Knockback should not be affected by the blast, so they couldn't use it as a means of propel.

EDIT: Phew! I sure type a lot. Can a mod strip these posts regarding Knockback and create a new thread? I feel this discussion warrants a space of its own.

I like the charge idea, but I don't understand the clear difference between knock-back and burst. It seems like knock-back requires better aiming than burst because you said it will only does its best if hit spot on.