SOCCER THREAD

[karamazovapy]

I thought about moving posts from other topics into a new, soccer-specific one, but they were all parts of other conversations. So, here it is, the one, the definitive, SOCCER THREAD.

Ideas that have come up:

Decrease Ball Size
Increase Friction
Increase Mass
"Carry" Ball
Do not modify soccer, create a tractor beam weapon

I think the one that seemed to be gaining traction was some method of being able to pick the ball up and fly with it. Putting graphical implementation on hold, is this an idea we can get behind?

Yes.

I don't care if it surrounds your entire ship, or is just in the front. Either way has its advantages.

The main question, for me, is whether or not the ball would take your shots (thus keeping you from fighting an enemy). I don't have particular preference either way.

If the ball is mounted in the front, it will likely be desirable to make it smaller, so the ship doesn't look completely stupid.

Regardless of the specific details, though, get it in, as soon as possible. I wouldn't even be against putting off 013 as long as it takes to get it in, just as long as it does get in.

[bobdaduck]

Make a tractor beam weapon. Problem solved.

[karamazovapy]

modifying original post

[watusimoto]

Another annual idea is increase the mass of the ball.

I don't care whether you pick up the ball or move it around with a tractor beam; just do *something* to make it notably and consistently more controllable, as soon as possible.

I say "consistently" because smaller balls, extra friction, and increased mass all take away from the ball's controllability in other ways -- a ball with friction doesn't go in the wrong direction as often, it's true, but it doesn't necessarily keep going in the right direction either, and from the friction experiment version of 013 that Wat made, it never goes at a very fast speed -- making shooting on the goalzone an inconceivably annoying task. Extra mass just makes it harder to go in either direction; it won't help you if it's already going the wrong way.

Remember that since tractor beams may also have an effect on other aspects of the game, the only thing we can do without much discussion or debate is to just change the soccer ball itself -- making the ability to pick up the ball, as described here, the least controversial decision in the long run.

[karamazovapy]

I dropped increased mass from the list because I think I was the one pushing for it, and I'm not convinced it's the best solution anymore. The reason I thought it would be helpful was because it would be more difficult to make it go the wrong way accidentally in the first place.

Now I favor some method of ball carrying, with the exception that you lose "grip" of it the second you get shot (as if you hit the "drop flag" button). That way you could pick it right back up again, but if you cut or changed direction or someone else was there to pick it up, you'd be SOL.

1) I was, and still am in some ways in favor of a ball with more mass.
2) Picking up the ball would be fine. With my understanding We could drop it with the B button obviously and pick it up like a flag. Cloak wouldn't work with it. Zapping the carrier would drop the ball automatically. I think it should be possible for someone to steal the ball by ramming you though.
3) If we are going to go with a tractor beam, make it able to influence TestItems, SoccerBalls, and ResourceItems, but not ships etc. (I don't really like this idea, but am not completely against it if ships can't be directly affected.)

[watusimoto]

Wouldn't being able to carry the ball make it more like a flag and less like a ball?

While I don't really like the idea of ball carrying, I am in full agreement that we need a way to get better control over the ball, and I don't have any better proposals than carrying it on that front.

Yes, it would.

I don't have a problem with that, though.

Besides, I don't think carrying it is mutually exclusive with how it moves now -- you could still shoot it to where you want it to go.

Carrying it on the front of your ship is probably a better idea, in retrospect, than 'becoming' the ball, if only because it gives you more deking options, and prevents you from just shooting a ball through an entire line of players to the net, which would be possible otherwise.

So, my proposed changes:

1) Make the ball smaller, so that carrying it on the front of your ship won't look completely stupid.
2) Allow the player to carry the ball on the front of their ship.
3) The ball can be knocked out of your possession with a shot, just like dropping the flag.
4) You can drop the ball to get it off your ship.
5) If you shoot while carrying the ball, it affects the ball (and blocks your shots).

That is all.

I'm tired of endless debate over a large field of proposed features; at the current rate the soccer revisions will never get in.

So do you approve of these proposed changes, yes or no? I'm willing to compromise on point 5.

...and actually might be warming up to Soccer's current state.

Then we shouldn't call it soccer, because the only thing it has in common with soccer is the concept of scoring points.

Its current name is false advertising, and lies to the players.

Do you want real soccer in BF, yes or no? If no, then you should propose a new name for the gametype. If yes, then drop by the soccer thread and state your opinion on the changes that have been proposed there, so we can get something moving.

It's pretty tempting to be sarcastic here, but it seems to me it does kind of work like soccer no? I mean, you don't have to squint your eyes or tilt your head as much as you do for CTF to look like Real-Life Capture The Flag.

You're shooting a white and transparent (which usually amounts to black and white), ball into a goal defended by the opposing team without being able to pick it up. If we could pick it up, it would be less like soccer than it already is.

Flying into the ball to bump it around is not at all the same as what is in real-life sports. I think that you take the word "picking up" in far too literal a fashion -- as in a football player who grabs the ball and runs down the field. Picking it up in this game is actually roughly synonymous with moving the ball with your legs, propelling a puck with a stick, or carrying another ball in a lacrosse stick, and will provide similar levels of control over the ball. All of these options provide a fine level of control that is impossible with the existing system.

Shooting it to (try) to get it to go where you want is an element incredibly unpredictable by anyone's standards, much less those in actual sports. If soccer players had to deal with a ball that was larger than them, where they had to shoot the ball to get it moving, I'm willing to bet that it wouldn't enjoy much as far as international popularity (though it might be better-regarded in the United States, if just because of the ricochets and inevitable injuries).

I believe the reason soccer was added originally in Zap! was to provide variation from the flag modes. You shot a ball into a goal, that's about it. There wasn't any "ball control", yes it was difficult, but it was simple and frantic.

For that reason, I've been on the fence about this particular topic. Should we really be going about changing the game? Well, I think we need to understand the problem - there needs to be better ball control. I think that's the main issue. So - It's been suggested before and I think the best idea is to add friction. Friction would keep the fun of the game but not be too much of a change. Add friction and although you'd still have a bit of trouble sticking with the ball, it wouldn't be bouncing all over the place and you wouldn't be running your socks off trying to get it and then bring it to the goal.

The other idea I had, but wasn't sure of it, was to add kind of a gravity pull around the player. So it isn't totally attached to a player, and they still have to keep it in reach. But it kinda comes back to the player, not a lot, and if it goes too far it breaks away from the gravity.

I'm keeping in mind a piece of what C. Bob said, which basically boils down to get an idea and do it. We've been running back and forth bouncing off ideas (two soccer puns right there ) and do need to decide. So, here's what I propose: Do it tournament style.

Four days to create a list of all ideas. New ideas can be included and added to the list. Ideas can be a bit far fetched.

Two days to weed out the "no-go" ideas. This would presumably need to be done by watusimoto, figure out what's reasonable and what isn't.

One week create a poll and vote. Best idea gets a chance to be tried out in game... if a fail then rinse and repeat. No don't go back to the second highest because after playing around with a new gameplay change there will likely be new ideas.

Sound fair?

Lastly, like it's been said, if we're to change the dynamics then the soccer name needs to go... right now you shoot a circle into a colored polygon, that can be any sport (work with me here) or can have a custom name,

@Sky_Lark: The gravity pull is kind of like my ionic pull idea, and I support it's implementation over all other ideas being suggested-- basically making the ball sticky to players.

I also appreciate your tournament style for ideas. Let's figure a way to do this. Maybe Meta-forum discussion?

[bobdaduck]

I like the proposed tournament style idea.

Gravitational pull sounds like what I envisioned tractor beam to work like, except that you have to target the ball rather then just having it roll to you.

Soccer... Football... Air hockey... Name is not important. This is a game set in space. There is no friction. Realistically. I think wanting the game to be realistic is stupid and I refuse to support an idea because its "realistic".

[watusimoto]

Here are the soccer improvements I'm planning on making for 014:

1) Allow the player to carry the ball on their ship.
2) When shot, the ball gets dropped
3) You can drop the ball to get it off your ship.
4) If you shoot while carrying the ball, the ball is dropped
5) (maybe) module use is restricted while carrying the ball

Unfortunately, I am afraid that all this ball carrying will effectively make soccer into another flag game... but we'll see.

[karamazovapy]

I think a key feature of ball carrying needs to be losing control if you get shot.

[Skybax]

I think that since this has characteristics from many different sports, we should rename it something more apropos.

How about, Calvinball, like from the comics Calvin & Hobbes?

[watusimoto]

See #2.

[karamazovapy]

See #2.

Ah, I read it as an obvious statement - when [the ball is] shot, the ball gets dropped.

I'd almost describe the new game as rugby, but then we'd have one more R-gametype.

I suggest that we delete the soccer game altogether and replace it with another game...

How about, Calvinball, like from the comics Calvin & Hobbes?

Awesome.

I'm all for the tractor beam idea, which I imagine would look something like this (manipulated) screenshot I attached.

[Skybax]

I think (if we use a tractor beam) it should actually be a BEAM, not a weird triangle thing. Then you could make it visible without having that huge weird thing. Maybe like a blue and white beam that sparkles, so it looks kind of like a teleport that's rolled up into a beam.

The beam should be somewhat visible (in my opinion). I don't want to be dribbling the ball and then suddenly it's being pulled away from me. I know there's a distance limit but nonetheless it could get confusing fast, especially if there are multiple people wielding the tractor beam.

[karamazovapy]

From what watusimoto posted, a tractor beam may get tested eventually but there are currently no plans of adding one.

[ZoombeR]

I personally don't like the tractor beam. It takes away from the retro aspect of the game, and puts in this weird mod.

I believe the reason soccer was added originally in Zap! was to provide variation from the flag modes. You shot a ball into a goal, that's about it. There wasn't any "ball control", yes it was difficult, but it was simple and frantic.

Fix any bugs that affect the actual gameplay, make it run nicely, and keep it at that.
The bots from zap! were, and the bitfighter bots here, will be good at this game. Adding a tractor beam module will take away from that, unless someone programed a bot that could use that ability too.

How about em old KISS rules mentioned in the other threads?
What use would this module be in other games?
I believe modules are not based on game types, but based on tactics and edges on the gameplay itself.

Flying into the ball to bump it around is not at all the same as what is in real-life sports. I think that you take the word "picking up" in far too literal a fashion -- as in a football player who grabs the ball and runs down the field. Picking it up in this game is actually roughly synonymous with moving the ball with your legs, propelling a puck with a stick, or carrying another ball in a lacrosse stick, and will provide similar levels of control over the ball. All of these options provide a fine level of control that is impossible with the existing system.

If anything, I like this point. Dribbling the ball will be a better feature, making it even more of a soccer game than it already is. And having light control will stop you from taking the ball and running with it, as the slightest phaser shot will make you drop it possibly, or however else you would like to define that part.

I suggest that we delete the soccer game altogether and replace it with another game...

bowling maybe.

[karamazovapy]

You could run with the soccer idea, give goalzones gravity (at least an attraction over the ball), and call it pinball.

[ZoombeR]

thatd be cool

Isnt there a pinball map made too? using the old features of zap?

Also, I'm going to play around with the source file, see what I can manipulate the ball to be able to do.

[watusimoto]

I've got ball carrying pretty much working -- unfortunately, it will require a new client. I can get 90% of the way without an upgrade, but the last 10% is critical. Passing works great.

I still need to make it so you can't fire or use modules while carrying the ball, and make it so that you drop the ball when shot. And right now, you can drop the ball into a wall, which could have some negative effect on game play.

But it is possible to steal the ball by crashing into the person carrying it. I'm beginning to think this might be a fun mod.

[karamazovapy]

But it is possible to steal the ball by crashing into the person carrying it.

That actually sounds kind of awesome.

[Skybax]

I was there, it was really cool!

The bots from zap! were, and the bitfighter bots here, will be good at this game. Adding a tractor beam module will take away from that, unless someone programed a bot that could use that ability too.

I could go either way when it came to a tractor beam, but it's an idea that's been talked about for years so if it was going to be implemented, those were just my thoughts.

I still need to make it so you can't fire or use modules while carrying the ball, and make it so that you drop the ball when shot.

What if, to get them to drop the ball, you would have to kill them instead of shooting them once? Right now it's easy to shoot somebody just once, and it'll be especially easy to shoot them just once if they don't have anything to defend themselves with. Killing them, however, might be a little more challenging and would ultimately let players hold onto the ball longer.

Think about it. All it takes is one shot to let them lose the ball. The cool thing about passing is to intercept you'd need to jump in the middle. Not anymore. Just shoot the sender and they wouldn't have a chance. Or if there was a guy going for the goal. Just send some phasers his way and he'd likely lose possession.

Furthermore, we wouldn't have boost. One of my favorite things about soccer is when you can get the ball and essentially dribble it down the field at high speeds. Carrying the ball would just slow you down.

If you're in a crowded situation, the enemy players don't need to focus on killing you, they need to spray some phasers and bam, you lost the ball.

It almost seems like I'd rather just dribble the ball than hold onto it. I'd have my weapons and modules, so I could defend myself and move fast, and they'd have to get through me if they wanted the ball.

I know I'm being a bit narrow minded here. It's not going to be as horrible as I'm making it out to be. You'll probably end up killing them anyway. And maybe the point of our soccer game type is not to hold the ball, but to dribble it and occasionally pick it up. Lastly, I'm just talking out of speculation, I don't know exactly how it's going to play out in game. With that said, I still believe that requiring a kill to drop the ball, under the current circumstances, is better than one shot.

phew

EDIT: Oh, and I can already imagine what would happen if a burst were to be fired at a player with the ball...

[karamazovapy]

What if, to get them to drop the ball, you would have to kill them instead of shooting them once? Right now it's easy to shoot somebody just once, and it'll be especially easy to shoot them just once if they don't have anything to defend themselves with. Killing them, however, might be a little more challenging and would ultimately let players hold onto the ball longer.

I'd support being able to activate modules while carrying the ball. But if you need to kill someone to force a drop, soccer starts looking a lot like all the other flag games.

[watusimoto]

Think of it this way: when threatened, you can just shoot the ball off into the goal, perhaps firing at it to give it a little extra speed. Once moving, it's still hard to stop.

We'll try it as I described, then adjust what doesn't work. The idea is to see what works, and what could be improved.

[watusimoto]

I hope to have the first preview 014 soccer release done tonight... just to whet your appetites.

[watusimoto]

Windows release:

http://bitfighter.org/files/Bitfighter-Installer-014-beta-1.exe

OS X release to follow soon.

[Skybax]

When Wat was testing it, and you were carrying the ball, you were invincible against everything except mines and bursts. I think that would be cool to keep, therefore, you could only lose the ball if someone either ran into you or could get you to run into a mine or burst enough times to kill you.
Of course, if this were so, you would have to disable all modules when you have the ball, so that you couldn't just boost away, or use shield when there's a burst, or repair yourself.

[ZoombeR]

I dunno, this is starting to feel like hand ball

[watusimoto]

There's a couple of bugs related to the various computers getting confused about who actually has the ball. You can still get a flavor, but this release is not without bugs.

[karamazovapy]

Is it time to open up 014 development discussion for talking about this experimental/pre-beta release?

[watusimoto]

Indeed!

[ZoombeR]

Windows release:

http://bitfighter.org/files/Bitfighter-Installer-014-beta-1.exe

OS X release to follow soon.

OSX is now released. Please use this link (intel only)

UPDATE:
WE NOW HAVE 014 BETA 1 RELEASED ON MAC FOR ALL PLATFORMS.
IF YOU ARE RUNNING 10.4 OR HAVE A POWER PC COMPUTER OR ARE JUST NOT SURE :p USE THIS LINK - UNIVERSAL / SUPPORTS ALL PLATFORMS

[karamazovapy]

The new soccer is unplayable. The way the ball jumps around from person to person is unpredictable. With large groups, you only realize you've even carried the ball after you've lost it again. Moving against a larger number of players is virtually impossible. There may still be a solution that involves carrying the ball, but having played a fair number of "new soccer" games, I'm beginning to doubt it.

[watusimoto]

I'm inclined to agree.

[karamazovapy]

New-Old-Soccer Implemented.