engineers

[ZoombeR]

if any of you remember from the zap! servers, rick's server had a special option, /eng which would turn your ship into "engineer mode" where you could pick up resource items, and type /bt to turn it into a turret and /bn to turn it into a forcefield.

i would love to see this *optional* feature be implemented into the game, as it can open up a whole new section of gameplay

I always hated engineer when it was on Gibbed, and I wasn't disappointed to see it go.

Maybe it's because it was so unintuitive -- it wasn't immediately apparent where an object would appear when you decided to build it. Maybe it's because of all the crossed force fields that people built to make it impossible to win against them. Maybe it's because it slowed down the game so much, and created an additional inconsistency (some force fields/turrets could be destroyed and turned into resource items, and others couldn't, and unless you knew the original map, there was no way to tell the difference).

Whatever the reason, I wasn't a fan and I was glad when it was gone. Spending the time on bringing it back, especially when we could be working on things like revising soccer, would seem to be a waste to me.

There's potential in the thing, but I haven't thought on it long enough to decide how best to go about it.

[watusimoto]

I believe most of the engineer code exists in BF, and someday I'll try to revive it, if only to see what all the fuss is about.

[ZoombeR]

perhaps the image was modified so you could tell which were made from players and which weren't?

[bobdaduck]

Worthless... Novelty, yet worthless.

All games with engineer available turn into fortress building competitions. Guaranteed. No exceptions. Ever.

[ZoombeR]

true.

although that was sorta the point of castles. i kinda liked that level.

gave you a different edge on the game besides simple ctf.

and the fact that that map was so simple, it needed the enginner mode included

It'd be a great mod in my opinion. Servers could have it enabled or disabled, or maybe you'd have to download something.

[Skybax]

Engineer was one of my favorite features in Zap!

[ZoombeR]

mine too. I would play use them all the time on Figure 8 and Castles (watever it was called)
I actually miss that figure 8 map. Not many people liked it but it was a pretty balanced ctf in my opinion.

Figure Eight was all right, except for the fact that it was hosted on an Engineer server.

[ZoombeR]

Figure 8 was good
Eng mode was good

Combined, they did not work well.

but as long as the level you have is a balanced level made for the resource items, its pretty useful and fun.

Seemed to me it spiced up the game. Let you be creative and try new things. Don't see why an optional implementation is being discouraged.

In this case, an 'optional implementation' takes work, which takes away from the time that could be spent on more important things, such as revising soccer, rebalancing weapons/modules, and adding other useful changes to the game.

[karamazovapy]

In this case, an 'optional implementation' takes work, which takes away from the time that could be spent on more important things, such as revising soccer, rebalancing weapons/modules, and adding other useful changes to the game.

You don't need to worry about soccer getting done. Watusimoto has said in a bunch of threads that soccer will get tweaked in 014.

[ZoombeR]

I'm not necessarily in a rush to get this feature added, I would just like to see it implemented now or sometime in the future.

[bobdaduck]

I would not like to see it implemented... It attracts noobs, which makes a big server, which means thats where the games are. Its quite discouraging to look at the status widget and see a ton of players, only to realize that they're all doing engineer.

I would be fine with never seeing engineers in Zap/BF again.

I'm not really sure why this is such a popular suggestion -- there are some obvious cons, of which I'll list a few.

1. Games turn into fortress-building competitions.
2. As it was in Zap, it was somewhat unintuitive. While this could be fixed, it's definitely still a problem.
3. The extra force fields and turrets slow down the pace of the game.
4. It makes the game more about 'collecting resources', which I feel will sidetrack the main elements of gameplay.

Meanwhile, the main argument I see in its favor is that it would "spice up the game" and "promote new strategy/gameplay". While this claim is technically accurate, it would also be true for virtually any other item or idea of significant effect that we could add to the game. Therefore, this argument is not convincing and shouldn't persuade anyone that adding this feature would be a good idea.

There are other games that already are fighting/fortress-building competitions, and include other "frequently asked" features that I'm sure you'll like too, like leveling up, distinct classes, and different weapons/health/roles based on what class you choose to be, and they're all better at those things than BF will likely ever be. Go play them and let BF be BF -- a fast, fun, frenetic action shooter with strategic elements.

Since when was attracting new players a bad thing, bobdaduck?

When they Just Don't Have A Clue™, and show no sign of ever improving or contributing to the game.

Signs to look for in a true noob are lack of communication, teamchanging, excessive repairing, and lack of movement.

Engineer noobs learn to move by necessity, but you can still reasonably expect the first three signs to surface in their 'play'...with, of course, excessive fortress-building thrown in, on top of their repair freak tendencies.

[karamazovapy]

I could be wrong, but I think we have a couple current community members who started as big /eng fans. They looked pretty hopeless at the time, but they're still here!

[bobdaduck]

There are better ways to attract new players that will become something... Ways that won't annoy the rest of us...

[karamazovapy]

There's absolutely no need to worry about this. Right now it's on watusimoto's "someday maybe" list.

Hmm, I never thought this would be a mainstream feature, just something that could be enabled or disabled per server/map, and would change up the gameplay a little.

Yeah, I'd have to say no if it's a mainstream feature. Seems like it's more of a fun little idea than a full feature.

[ZoombeR]

Hmm, I never thought this would be a mainstream feature, just something that could be enabled or disabled per server/map, and would change up the gameplay a little.

Yeah, I'd have to say no if it's a mainstream feature. Seems like it's more of a fun little idea than a full feature.

1. yes, i never intended for it to be a full-on always enabled feature. Just a switchable option either located in the .level file or the .ini file, (if its just a server switch)

2. if you absolutely hate it, just don't put it on your server. There aren't many resource items anyways.

3. Heres why Gibbed! turned into a fortress server. One of the maps was called, Castles. Well I'm no genius but i think that was designed especially for the resource items and for a lot of repairable scattered around. In say, figure 8, there wasn't just 2 or 4 resource items, like in normal maps, there was at least 20, maybe more.
Of course when you have 20 resource items, it will turn into a fortress map. Maybe if you used a normal stock map, you could build just a couple extra resource items, or however you see it.

When they Just Don't Have A Clue™, and show no sign of ever improving or contributing to the game.

Signs to look for in a true noob are lack of communication, teamchanging, excessive repairing, and lack of movement.

Engineer noobs learn to move by necessity, but you can still reasonably expect the first three signs to surface in their 'play'...with, of course, excessive fortress-building thrown in, on top of their repair freak tendencies.

4. I can tell you straightforward that you are absolutely wrong about newbies never improving because they are stuck to repairing. Why? because I was one of those players. I would see players I knew were better than me, like quartz or whomever join, and then leave later because I was always repairing items. Maybe they don't improve, because nobody really good ever plays them. After playing some good things, I certainly didn't want to loose every time, and I did observe how better players played. Weather that be not using repair module, which brought my gameplay out of the engineering phase, or how to conserve energy and not just stand in one place and shield while another guy shoots at you. Everybody can improve, but this is a hard game to play, especially with people who have been playing for years and years.

5. Almost every new player I've played that didn't speak, didn't speak because they didn't know how to. Heck, when i came back even i didn't. (of course until i remembered how to change the key) Most new players I've come across, will speak if they know how to. This has completely nothing to do with being an engineer.

6. Now I could be wrong, but maybe they only move by necessity, show only what they want or just stand there. But if I know anything, its that a game is supposed to be fun. right? Engineer mode made it fun for the new players. Really....what is so bad about having alot of newbies having fun on an engineer server?

[bobdaduck]

That the rest of us want to play a normal game.

Like I said. We can add other novelty stuff to attract new players without bugging the crap out of veterans.

[karamazovapy]

Youse trollin

I've always wanted to make an engineering map with 1 resource item, in the middle. People would probably ignore it, though. In any case, it is a good point by Zoomber that only maps with many, many resources can turn into fortress-building fests.

[karamazovapy]

  Code:

if(ship->hasModule(ModuleEngineer) && !ship->carryingResource())
   {
      if(!isGhost())
         mountToShip(ship);
      return false;
   }
   return true;
}
 

4. I can tell you straightforward that you are absolutely wrong about newbies never improving because they are stuck to repairing. Why? because I was one of those players.

One person out of dozens or hundreds; that hardly breaks the trend. I challenge you to name one other player who fits the mold who later became a decent player, in spite of his beginnings -- and don't try to say Blackhawk, either.

5. Almost every new player I've played that didn't speak, didn't speak because they didn't know how to.

Half the time, they don't pay attention to anything you say either, and don't say a word even after you (try to) teach them how to speak.

Besides, it isn't like it's that hard to find out how to chat -- does anyone read the instructions anymore? They ought to be mandatory.

6. Now I could be wrong, but maybe they only move by necessity, show only what they want or just stand there.

I'd be more willing to buy the necessity argument if they didn't sit in one place, shooting in the same direction, while I fly in, take the flag, and fly back out...with no need to fear their pursuing me, since they apparently can't move.

That the rest of us want to play a normal game.

Like I said. We can add other novelty stuff to attract new players without bugging the crap out of veterans.

You don't add the engineer mod into the game for standard playing. It's like a mod on any other game... it breaks away from the game for temporary enjoyment. Not meant to replace or be inserted into the regular game.

Besides, it isn't like it's that hard to find out how to chat -- does anyone read the instructions anymore? They ought to be mandatory.

Off topic here, but speaking of instructions, there's nothing on destroying laserbeams... amusing and depressing to see the player bump repeatedly into the laserbeam hoping it will melt.

[karamazovapy]

Their concern is that if the engineer mod is allowed on even a single server, all the new players will gravitate there. Then every time they want to play a game, they will be "forced" to play with engineers.

I don't really share this concern or the idea that it should be a concern, but I'm not going to try to talk them out of it. I'm willing to bet their minds are made up on the issue.

Hmm, didn't think about that. Then perhaps it would have to be only certain maps enabled with engineer, and on an engineer enabled server?

Or, going one step further, you might have to install the mod yourself. This would get the players into the community but it would decrease the engineer usage.

[bobdaduck]

That's how it happened with gibbed... So every game was full of engineers on zap. And once a month someone would say, "lets play a normal game" and host one.

[karamazovapy]

Of course actual members of the community should all have the levelchangepassword, so they could just advance to a non-engineer map...

[ZoombeR]

that brings forth a good idea to tie in with this.

those kind of players who don't chat may still listen.

if they want to be able to play the /eng map, they have to register on the community, and say it was from my server, pm me for the pass.

that might get them to talk

Of course actual members of the community should all have the levelchangepassword, so they could just advance to a non-engineer map...

This seems like the best idea, just to enable it in the map. That way people would eventually play engineer mods and leave or change it if they didn't want it.

Another idea, but probably wouldn't work, would to just enable engineering on a random map, say 1 map every 8 maps in the cycle. This would keep the surprise but if maps didn't have resource items it wouldn't work, and might be too hard to develop.

[karamazovapy]

An issue watusimoto has brought up in the past is providing a degree of consistency for major features from level to level. Having an /eng server where not all the maps have resource items isn't confusing. Having an /eng server where engineer is completely turned off for certain levels seems weird.

As it stands, this is far enough down the development list and divisive enough so that we don't need to worry about it unless someone is patching the code on their own.

I'm mostly agreeing with sky_lark on this topic. Engineer was an interesting mod, but the way it was used made it unappealing to me, but a lot of people seemed to like it. I suggest implementing it, but it needs to be it's own gametype or mod or something along those lines so that people can make maps that can utilize engineer specifically and turn it into a fun gametype that lots of people want to play and not have it turn into something like Figure 8.

I'll be frank - I was one of those people who enjoyed making the fortresses and then taking it all down. Heck, I bet I'll still enjoy it. For that reason, it wouldn't fit as a mainstream addition. It would have its own purposes and objectives.

Current options as I see them:

A) Enable/disable for server, on all maps with resource items
B) Enable/disable per map
C) Enable/disable per map + server must be enabled (for easy on/off)
D) Make engineer an actual game mode (essentially B)

watusimoto, if you could please chime in when you can and let us know which is easiest development-wise (or any other developer for that matter).

EDIT: Fantasizing here, what if everybody had x2 speed (as a mod). I know it's already been done with external programs, but I have yet to see it been done smoothly.

[karamazovapy]

assume we're still on a watusication

[ZoombeR]

I'll be frank - I was one of those people who enjoyed making the fortresses and then taking it all down. Heck, I bet I'll still enjoy it. For that reason, it wouldn't fit as a mainstream addition. It would have its own purposes and objectives.

Current options as I see them:

A) Enable/disable for server, on all maps with resource items
B) Enable/disable per map
C) Enable/disable per map + server must be enabled (for easy on/off)
D) Make engineer an actual game mode (essentially B)

watusimoto, if you could please chime in when you can and let us know which is easiest development-wise (or any other developer for that matter).

so was I, but like i said, it was mostly a fortress, because the map, named Castles..Was meant straightforward for castle stuff. Maybe if all the maps have resource items, some can only have two or four, giving you only a slight advantage, and not some wicked fortress.

As for options, I like option C, which implements both option A and B

EDIT: Fantasizing here, what if everybody had x2 speed (as a mod). I know it's already been done with external programs, but I have yet to see it been done smoothly.

once i get my vps ready and they make cheatengine for linux, ill show you 2x.
I have used cheat engine on my windows xp desktop as well. For it to work, you must have the server AND the clients both using 2x. If the client does not use it, he may still play, but will have a disadvantage as the turrets shoot much faster, he has a lack of speed, and his energy regenerates slower. If the client uses 2x speed, and the server does not use a speedhack, the player will lag into place of where the server thinks he is, meaning, the speedhack isn't putting an effect on your ship; on other clients the ship will look like a normal moving ship.

Edit: you can use speedhack to go slower (.5x) on a server that does not have speedhack enabled. Maybe you could hack your levels at .80 to give yourself a slight disadvantage when your facing someone thats fairly new.

[karamazovapy]

once i get my vps ready and they make cheatengine for linux, ill show you 2x.

With *most* linux vps systems, you don't get a graphical user interface, just a console like Terminal or an old DOS command prompt. However, since you compile bitfighter yourself on those systems, it's pretty easy to swap in and out individual files with tweaked values. I was going to do this with a second install to try out some different soccer modifications, but was having trouble getting it to compile...

[ZoombeR]

so i see. I guess it will be harder for me as I dont know how to build a version of btifighter through terminal.

If I have ubuntu installed as my linux os, could I just install it from the link given on the wiki that was built for Ubuntu??

[watusimoto]

I'm sure I've posted all of this before but...

Most (if not all) the code for engineer is included in the bf source code, so I think it would be easy to implement engineer. I'd like to see how it works, so I will likely try it out, at least on a test build. If I do that, it would seem a logical next step to let others do so as well. However, implementing engineer across the board would break existing levels with resource items. The only logical solution is to make engineer an option that is enableable on a level-by-level basis. Which will happen sometime.

[bobdaduck]

I was going to do this with a second install to try out some different soccer modifications, but was having trouble getting it to compile...

Do you have the five or so files for the folder "Win_Include_do_not_distribute"? They're required.

[karamazovapy]

Do you have the five or so files for the folder "Win_Include_do_not_distribute"? They're required.

I got the whole svn.

[watusimoto]

Those files aren't included; I can't post them in the repository because they aren't mine. There are instructions for how to get them yourself, though...

[karamazovapy]

Let me rephrase.

I have everything. I was building on linux.

[ZoombeR]

Those files aren't included; I can't post them in the repository because they aren't mine. There are instructions for how to get them yourself, though...

wait, what?