Soccer scoring changes/CTF flag crash

Right now, when the soccer ball goes over a zone, that's a point for the opponents of the owners of the zone. Right now, however, there is a moment's time where the the ball drifts after the score has been made. What if, in the course of its drift, you could still score additional points with it? That way you could wrack up multiple points, if there were several goalzones in a row. This change shouldn't seriously affect the vast majority of existing soccer maps, and could be a nice feature to help inspire diversity in map design.

What do you think?

And by the way, when you're in CTF and try to pick up a neutral or hostile flag, the game crashes. Could a change be made to allow you to handle these flags without any problems?

[watusimoto]

when you're in CTF and try to pick up a neutral or hostile flag, the game crashes. Could a change be made to allow you to handle these flags without any problems?

Crashing is always a bug, so when I'm thinking about how to fix this, it would be helpful to know what you want to do with these flags, and how they should work.

[karamazovapy]

oooh...options:

Neutral - Team +1
Hostile - Team -1

Neutral - All Teams +1
Hostile - All Teams -1

Neutral - All Teams +1
Hostile - Team -1

I really like the idea of capturing the hostile flag removing points. You could do cool stuff like grab it and drop it right near the enemy's flag return. Then they'd have to be really careful removing it to prevent losing points. If the Neutral flag gave everyone a point, you'd have to decide if it was worth the risk of helping the enemy in the process of helping yourself. You also might have to consider the danger of letting the other team(s) control these extra flags.

Maybe have it so that neutral flags can't be picked up or moved, and you can "score" by putting an enemy flag on it, giving your team +1 point, just like in soccer.

Then hostile flags could be captured like normal enemy flags, for +1 points.

In effect, neutral flags would behave as your own flag, for everyone, and hostile flags would behave as the other team's flag.

The only problem with this system is that it is inconsistent with soccer scoring, which is the only example of neutral/hostile scoring interactions that we currently have.

(There, scoring a goal on a hostile goal gives your team -1 points, and scoring on a neutral one, +1 point. I'm not sure if I would rather just have the hostile goal-scoring give every team but yours a point, since negative score is avoided in every other gametype.)

[karamazovapy]

...neutral flags can't be picked up or moved, and you can "score" by putting an enemy flag on it, giving your team +1 point...

Then hostile flags could be captured like normal enemy flags, for +1 points.

This isn't a bad system, but then neutral flags are the same as goalzones in most gametypes and hostile flags are like neutral flags in retrieve.

I think I'd be more excited to see something new than a blending of gametypes.

These ideas for CTF are both very cool, although I have to agree with karamazovapy that the immobile neutral etc idea sounds a lot like pre-existing gametypes. However, I would be hesitant to have the hostile flag only count as -1 for the capturing team because that would be confusing to the point of cruelty to new players. On the other hand, having +/-1 to all teams would serve only to delay or extend the game. I think that that would be a very interesting mechanic, but it doesn't feel very much like CTF, and I guarantee it will annoy players. Oddly, karamazovapy would have been at the top of the list of players I would guess that would annoy.

[karamazovapy]

I personally like Neutral:+1:All/Hostile:-1:Team because Neutral flags could be used to end a game more quickly and Hostiles could be used strategically. You could certainly have idiots on your team who would make unwise choices, but it would be much more difficult to "ruin" a game this way. Also, you wouldn't have to use these flags, so their addition would break regular CTF gameplay or rules.

I'm not sure what's annoying about the concept, beyond having a stupid teammate, though.

[Skybax]

I agree with _k

When I said the +1 or -1 to all teams could be annoying, I was thinking that such flags could cause problems if a team captures the enemy flag once and then ignores half of the map, focusing on defense and neutrals. This would represent a shift away from the spirit (if that makes sense in this context) of CTF and that would discourage the usual high level of interaction between players. I suppose that it is very much up to the map's design whether neutrals will work or not, however.

As for the -1 team flags, the question of confusion should not be dismissed. Even if new players realize that they are worth negative point, even if they can discern between neutral and hostile flags, I would assume very few know how to drop flags.

I understand this post sounds very negative, but I do like the idea in general, and I do think this space should be developed. I just want to make sure that all possible problems are at the very least considered.

I'm somewhat wary of the universal +/- system, myself, but I'm not concerned about it enough to come up with a coherent argument against it.

On the other topic, though, has anyone given any thought to the soccer scoring change I proposed here?

Also, I've noticed that hostile goal zones in Soccer tend to make the game crash. A level I have (which I am willing to send to you, Wat, if necessary) that uses several of these crashes with astonishing regularity, enough as to make it unplayable. Using bursts on the ball may or may not help trigger it.

[watusimoto]

Sure, yes, post the level! Better yet, post a bug report with the level included, and that will ensure I get it fixed prior to the next release.

I like C. Bob's idea. I also would like to suggest that the soccer ball teleport rather than mysteriously float over barriers and not respond to fire back to its starting position.

[karamazovapy]

my only concern with the soccer scoring suggestion is that I'm concerned goalzones will get counted twice due to rebounds and attempted "saves". I mean, if you have a line of zones and a ship is trying to stop the ball:
(*)*(*)o(*)<( ) ( )
will those first two or three zones get counted as goals on the ball's way back out?

I was thinking that it could be set up so that if a ball goes through a goal zone, it can't score on that zone again (but it can score on other zones, before it's sent back to the center).

I talked to Wat about this idea, though, and he actually thinks it would be simpler (and perhaps more effective) to just have goalzones vary in how many points they can award you. This is what I primarily intended, anyway -- to make it so that some goalzones can be worth more than others -- to inspire map design that allows people to choose between a difficult, but rewarding goalzone and an easier one that isn't worth as much.

I agree with Unknown's suggestion about soccer ball flags -- I believe there is something of a precedent for this, as if I remember correctly, the Retrieve flags instantly respawn instead of drifting back. Additionally, being able to push the ball by firing at the spot it's going to be at (but isn't at), as it's respawning, always looks really stupid, and messes everything up in small soccer maps.

[watusimoto]

If someone puts in a bug report about changing the soccer ball to instantly respawn, rather than drift back home, I'll get that changed.

[Skybax]

What if you make soccer kind of like ZC with a ball? You can only score on each zone once, and then once you've scored on all zones it resets?

[watusimoto]

That would be very interesting.... that's what.

[karamazovapy]

What if you make soccer kind of like ZC with a ball? You can only score on each zone once, and then once you've scored on all zones it resets?

People would dread soccer levels even more, because they'd never end.

[Skybax]

That just depends on how many points you set to get. Each zone would count as a point, you would just be required to get all the zones for a touchdown. Currently, a 10 point match could take forever, if the proper players were involved. In this idea, a 10 point match could be split up into increments of two touchdowns. I think it would be fun.