New idea

[watusimoto]

So how about this for an idea? We have these things (for the moment I'm calling the "crowns", but don't let the terminology get in the way) that you find around a level, that give you extra powers, such as more energy, faster firing, etc.

You pick them up by running into them, but when you die, you leave the crown behind for someone else to pick up. So it's kind of a rotating extra power that might (or might not) be worth fighting over.

What do you think of this idea?

[Little_Apple]

That sounds interesting. What if armor was one of those items instead of a module? Just a thought...

I like it. I might stick with simple buffs like more speed or hp, though.

[watusimoto]

Maybe a scoring bonus.

[karamazovapy]

I feel like we're at the point where additional game mechanics will make the game more complicated without necessarily making it better. The only exceptions I can think of off hand would be additional gametypes, replacements for existing weapons or modules, and enhanced scripting possibilities for dynamic levels in the form of triggers/supervisor script. I'm not really in favor of adding more "stuff" though.

[bobdaduck]

What _k said.

Though I still think making loadout zones enhance energy regen is a good idea and needs to be given a chance.

[Skybax]

I like the crown idea. I think something similar has been suggested in the past.

[ZoombeR]

I like it. I might stick with simple buffs like more speed or hp, though.

how about the same energy and repair items, just this time consumable when you want, and place-able by the map maker.

[karamazovapy]

Though I still think making loadout zones enhance energy regen is a good idea and needs to be given a chance.

I'm okay with this.

[ZoombeR]

Though I still think making loadout zones enhance energy regen is a good idea and needs to be given a chance.

I'm okay with this.

I know he's stressed this before, more than once. I think we should really give this a try. I'm sure sam686 can make this mod quicker than I can write my own post. After all, doesn't a load-out zone most of the time signify your "base"?

Interesting idea, Wat. I'd be interested in what effects a crown would have on your team, if any. Would this "score bonus" boost your personal score or your team's score?

Something I've been thinking about… introduce another gameplay element that is highly sought after. Something more rare than a first aid kit, but less important than scoring flags (in a flag-based mode). So in a Capture the Flag game your primary objective would be to score the flag, but the new gameplay object would be like a secondary objective. Note that this gameplay object would have no direct effect on the score, you'd still have to capture flags to win, and it'd be an optional objective.

Why this new object is highly sought after... well, I didn't get that far. I'm sure there are lots of possibilities however, potentially incorporating Wat's crown idea.

This may be completely different from what you're thinking, but it's been on my mind and wanted to throw it out there.

[watusimoto]

Though I still think making loadout zones enhance energy regen is a good idea and needs to be given a chance.

It's on the list for 016.

[watusimoto]

@sky_lark -- it's exactly what I was thinking. If having a crown let you score 2 pts for capturing the flag rather than 1, it would be a very valuable asset for your team to have. Yet you'd still need to be focused on scoring in order to enjoy the benefit.

[ZoombeR]

will this be a problem when one team holds the crown in their base the whole time, and takes it out just to cap it.

Levels would have to be alot bigger if we want to make it more interesting.

will this be a problem when one team holds the crown in their base the whole time, and takes it out just to cap it.

I think we could find a workaround to that. Maybe the crown carrier has to steal the flag from its spawn point and score to get the extra points.

@sky_lark -- it's exactly what I was thinking. If having a crown let you score 2 pts for capturing the flag rather than 1, it would be a very valuable asset for your team to have. Yet you'd still need to be focused on scoring in order to enjoy the benefit.

To be clear, I was suggesting that the crown would have no direct impact on the scoring, but instead would provide benefits such as a health boost, for example. Your idea would have a much more significant effect on the gameplay, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[raptor]

Time to date myself. This is just like the idea of 'relics' in the first person shooter Unreal Tournament. If I recall there were 6 that you could add to any game to help boost the players abilities:

Strength - double damage
Defense - take half damage
Speed - twice as fast
Regeneration - heal 10 health every few seconds
Redemption - teleport safely nearby when health hits 0 instead of dying
Vengeance - kill everyone nearby upon death

Just thought I'd add concrete examples of other implementations of this idea.

[Santiago ZAP]

Strength - double damage
Defense - take half damage
Speed - twice as fast

Idea made from paint

[karamazovapy]

I like the idea of 'blood' in the first person shooter Wolfenstein 3D. You can drink it when you're low on power.

[ZoombeR]

Time to date myself. This is just like the idea of 'relics' in the first person shooter Unreal Tournament. If I recall there were 6 that you could add to any game to help boost the players abilities:

Strength - double damage
Defense - take half damage
Speed - twice as fast
Regeneration - heal 10 health every few seconds
Redemption - teleport safely nearby when health hits 0 instead of dying
Vengeance - kill everyone nearby upon death

Just thought I'd add concrete examples of other implementations of this idea.

Strength - ok
Defense - ok
Speed - no
Regeneration - good
Redemption - absolutley not
Vengeance - good

remember, some players might be holding a flag or carrot with redemption, and could be very frustrating to the defending team.

[sam686]

Strength - double damage
Defense - take half damage
Speed - twice as fast
Regeneration - heal 10 health every few seconds
Redemption - teleport safely nearby when health hits 0 instead of dying
Vengeance - kill everyone nearby upon death

Phaser Shield - Shields only phaser
Flag Magnet (Nexus mode only) - all flags attracts to you
Life force vampire - gain same amount of health you took away from enemy.
Blast shield - shields from burst and mines.
Anti-forcefield - go through enemy forcefields
Slow motion - all enemies go in slow motion. Your team will be normal speed.
Rapid fire - your bullets fire twice as fast
Super energy recover - recovers ship's energy twice as fast
Regroup - teleport all your team to where you are
Super cloak - cloak that cannot be detected when using sensor
Fire asteroids - your ship fires small asteroids
Asteroid shield - shield from asteroids
Turret shield - shield from all turrets
Ship paint - makes enemies see your ship as enemy's own team
Super fire - your bullets go twice as fast and twice as far
Heat seeking fire - your bullets change direction to hit directly to enemy
Super repair - your repair module will instantly heal anything to full health.
Touch destroyer - any enemy you touch will get destroyed
Auto aim - it will aim for you
Holographic ship - Creates your ghost ship at some random position from your ship to trick the enemy into firing that.
Massive damage - destroy anything in one hit
Asteroid transformation - turn your ship into asteroid and control it
Super Sensor - see everything in the level
Unlimited mines - place mines with no cost of energy
Three way fire - shooting forward will also fire at both of your sides
Enemy control - take over the control of one of your enemy ship
Bouncer long life - Bouncers last 10 times longer bouncing around
Big Spybug - Your Spybug being placed have bigger seeing space.
Big ship - your ship get big and can squish enemy ship

[Little_Apple]

Big ship sounds fun

[ZoombeR]

Strength - double damage
Defense - take half damage
Speed - twice as fast
Regeneration - heal 10 health every few seconds
Redemption - teleport safely nearby when health hits 0 instead of dying
Vengeance - kill everyone nearby upon death

Phaser Shield - Shields only phaser
Flag Magnet (Nexus mode only) - all flags attracts to you
Life force vampire - gain same amount of health you took away from enemy.
Blast shield - shields from burst and mines.
(excerpt etceteras)

I really don't suggest we go down that path. 20+ items are way too many items to put in one game. Its going to be overpacked, and the idea of a small power-up will be overkill. First of all, ground rules according to the K.I.S.S./Zap! lawbook: simple. That means no more than 4 unique new powerups, if we really want to go in the opposite direction of simplified. Second of all, alot of these ideas are very vague or sometimes ambiguous in the sense they are only used on rare special occasions, like in one gametype. Another issue with these ideas are the fact that they are a bit complicated in text. Remembering that one kind of powerup only defends from turrets while another defends from asteroids can be quite confusing, having to remember so much. Finally, some of the ideas can be defective to maps, more likely to be glitchy, or give you engineered results.

[sam686]

First of all, ground rules according to the K.I.S.S./Zap! lawbook: simple.

Bitfighter is not Zap. Bitfighter don't need to follow Zap rules. Where do you see Zap Lawbook? If what you want is simple, then don't add this new idea?

Remembering that one kind of powerup only defends from turrets while another defends from asteroids can be quite confusing, having to remember so much.

Asteroid shield is simple, can't get hit from asteroids. Turret shield is simple, can't get hit from turrets. How can that be confusing? There is no need to remember everything.

Less then half of the list might go into Bitfighter, depending how easy it is to program. Maybe if you tell us which one you like, it might be added in Bitfighter.

[ZoombeR]

First of all, ground rules according to the K.I.S.S./Zap! lawbook: simple.

Bitfighter is not Zap. Bitfighter don't need to follow Zap rules. Where do you see Zap Lawbook? If what you want is simple, then don't add this new idea?

Remembering that one kind of powerup only defends from turrets while another defends from asteroids can be quite confusing, having to remember so much.

Asteroid shield is simple, can't get hit from asteroids. Turret shield is simple, can't get hit from turrets. How can that be confusing? There is no need to remember everything.

Less then half of the list might go into Bitfighter, depending how easy it is to program. Maybe if you tell us which one you like, it might be added in Bitfighter.

There is no lawbook. All im trying to say, is adding a bunch of ideas makes bitfighter much more complicated. Look up what K.I.S.S. stands for.

Its easy to remember asteroid shield shields asteroids, but how do you know you got the asteroid shield, and not the turret shield? What if you get the blast shield but think its the turret shield?

[Skybax]

I like all of the ideas, lol… Maybe I have a too open mind xD

[ZoombeR]

some of these are good ideas however. and easier to remember as well as having the ability to appear in any map gametype.

Auto aim - it will aim for you

Super energy recover - recovers ship's energy twice as fast

(maybe it just increases your max energy? or makes energy drain split in half)?

Heat seeking fire - your bullets change direction to hit directly to enemy

dont forget theres still that heat seeker code.

[karamazovapy]

I still think the secondary objective is a mistake. Apparently it's already difficult for some new players to figure out the primary objective for each gametype with all the variations we have, and it's even more difficult for them to achieve those objectives.

We don't need more items or objects in the game, we need the community to invest in better level design. If the game gets boring or frustrating or seems simplistic, it's because the levels aren't good enough to promote good gameplay. I'm not against innovation, but new items are like fast-burning fuel. Think about the maps you've played recently - or better yet - hop on a server and scroll through a dozen. Would these new items make any of those maps better? My concern is that we're going to add a bunch of new objects, players are going to get excited and use them everywhere, and when the novelty wears off they're going to be looking for the next new toy.

That's my opinion, anyway. If everyone else feels differently...well that's okay. I've said my piece, so I won't keep chiming in.

[Skybax]

I find myself being against refraining from adding new features for the purpose of "dumbing it down" for new and young players. If they can't even figure out the gametypes, I'd rather play against bots.
And what about the argument claiming that older gamers have trouble sticking with the game because it's too simplistic?
I know when I found Zap!, I was maybe 7 or 8, and I figured it all out within two matches. Did kids get dumber?

[ZoombeR]

I agree with _k. We can't make it more complicated. A secondary objective would screw up existing tactics, existing maps, and bend the light of strategy in a weaker bend. Tactics will be more complex and harder to draw up. No thanks.

[watusimoto]

Nobody panic -- this is just a discussion, and none of these ideas will be part of 016. Even if we don't add this idea to Bitfighter, it already spawned about 20 interesting ideas from Sam that might be helpful in other areas, perhaps as a module, perhaps as something else. Perhaps nothing. Who knows?

[sam686]

If the game gets boring or frustrating or seems simplistic, it's because the levels aren't good enough to promote good gameplay.

Some players may think the game gets frustrating, only because of losing, and for new players, not knowing how to do something. Some players may think the game get boring, when there is no players in any server. This "boring or frustrating" problem can happen in any levels.

Think about the maps you've played recently - or better yet - hop on a server and scroll through a dozen. Would these new items make any of those maps better?

First problem, where will that crown or any new item go in existing levels? If such crown or extra items is added, level makers will probably need to add that new item somewhere in the level.

This is what I said before.

Less then half of the list might go into Bitfighter, depending how easy it is to program. Maybe if you tell us which one you like, it might be added in Bitfighter.

Less then half might possibly be nothing.

I still think the secondary objective is a mistake. Apparently it's already difficult for some new players to figure out the primary objective for each gametype with all the variations we have, and it's even more difficult for them to achieve those objectives.

What do you think about a separate game-mode that has multiple objectives? Think about it like a checklist... your team would have to complete multiple objectives before winning. An example that I just thought of:

1. Locate and secure ten "keys" (think flags) to unlock a gate.

2. The gate leads into a hallway with a generator. Eliminate any enemy turrets in the hallway, then shut down the generator.

3. Shutting down the generator will give your team access to top secret enemy plans. Unfortunately, these plans are located in the enemy base... your team must steal it to win.

To be clear, that's just an example. It doesn't need to be as involved as that.

Team Fortress 2 has a fun mode known as Control Point. I'm sure somebody else can explain it better than I can, but from what I understand there's an offensive team and a defensive team. The offensive team must capture control points one at a time, while the defensive team tries to stop them. The offensive team cannot access the other control points until the first control point has been captured.

[Skybax]

Funny how reading your post made me think of Team Fortress 2 and then you started talking about it. I was like "Whoa that post just read my miiiind!"

[ZoombeR]

If the game gets boring or frustrating or seems simplistic, it's because the levels aren't good enough to promote good gameplay.

Some players may think the game gets frustrating, only because of losing, and for new players, not knowing how to do something. Some players may think the game get boring, when there is no players in any server. This "boring or frustrating" problem can happen in any levels.

You yourself have been frustrated on maps, because of bad gameplay, we all have. However, we only demonstrate frustration while we're loosing. The bad aspects only make it worse enough for us to complain about it.
Sure, you can be frustrated about loosing, or not knowing how to control a ship, but have you ever thought the reason they cant control the ship is because of the map? Think figuratively here, not literally. Maybe think a little bit literally too.

The point is, maps can be poorly designed and not good enough to promote good gameplay. Why else would we get bored? if theres nobody on, we don't even join the server, that doesn't mean we feel bored, we dont even go on. It gets boring because either most players are idle, or the map kills gameplay.

[Little_Apple]

Too many words. Make smaller.

[sam686]

but have you ever thought the reason they cant control the ship is because of the map?

Players can't control the ship while lagging badly. Most problems is not about levels.

if theres nobody on, we don't even join the server, that doesn't mean we feel bored, we dont even go on.

That might by why there is too little players, no one go on because the server are all empty from players.

I don't know if multiple objective would work in multiplayer.

2. The gate leads into a hallway with a generator. Eliminate any enemy turrets in the hallway, then shut down the generator.

Would that generator turn off all turrets and all forcefields?

[karamazovapy]

Most problems is not about levels.

I totally disagree. This game IS the levels. Everything else is just a mechanic.

Funny how reading your post made me think of Team Fortress 2 and then you started talking about it. I was like "Whoa that post just read my miiiind!"

I hardly ever not think of Team Fortress 2. It's a disease, I tell you.

[ZoombeR]

but have you ever thought the reason they cant control the ship is because of the map?

Players can't control the ship while lagging badly. Most problems is not about levels.

I knew you would give me this answer. I said, think figuratively, not literally loosing the ability to control your ship, which is rare with lag, since bitfighter is not one of the biggest games out there..

Would that generator turn off all turrets and all forcefields?

That's one possibility, the idea I had was that the enemy plans were somehow impossible to gain access to without shutting off the generator.

[ZoombeR]

Would that generator turn off all turrets and all forcefields?

That's one possibility, the idea I had was that the enemy plans were somehow impossible to gain access to without shutting off the generator.

or maybe this "generator" powers and auto-heals turrets / forcefields? shutting it off makes it unrepairable, and turrets attached to it unrepairable? just venting here.

To be clear, the generator idea was just an example.

But yeah, that's a good idea, in fact a generator might be an interesting addition outside of a multi-step game mode. It would be a great secondary objective -- no direct effect on the score but still worth defending.

[ZoombeR]

To be clear, the generator idea was just an example.

But yeah, that's a good idea, in fact a generator might be an interesting addition outside of a multi-step game mode. It would be a great secondary objective -- no direct effect on the score but still worth defending.

Ok. Though, maybe a "siege" objective would be cool. Although, i think something similar to that might be in 016.

So how about this for an idea? We have these things (for the moment I'm calling the "crowns", but don't let the terminology get in the way) that you find around a level, that give you extra powers, such as more energy, faster firing, etc.

Did you got that from platform racing 2?

[ZoombeR]

So how about this for an idea? We have these things (for the moment I'm calling the "crowns", but don't let the terminology get in the way) that you find around a level, that give you extra powers, such as more energy, faster firing, etc.

Did you got that from platform racing 2?

there are alot of games and non-games that use "crowns"

So how about this for an idea? We have these things (for the moment I'm calling the "crowns", but don't let the terminology get in the way) that you find around a level, that give you extra powers, such as more energy, faster firing, etc.

Did you got that from platform racing 2?

I've played a bit of platform racing and watusimoto is talking about something completely different. In Bitfighter, you wouldn't get to start out with a crown, you'd have to locate and pick it up. Additionally other players could steal it.

But more importantly, he was only calling it a crown likely for lack of a better word, to describe a sought-after object that gave you powers.

[ZoombeR]

how about a "bit_lark"?