#bitfighter IRC Log

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IRC Log for 2011-09-28

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

00:15:00raptorthanks for fixing the Makefile for me
00:16:00raptorkaramazovapy: you assessment of how we draw the ships is correct
00:16:00koda Quit (Quit: k thx bai)
00:23:00Flynnn Quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
01:52:00karamazovapyI like that dinosaurs are mentioned on the bitfighter startup screen
01:53:00BFLogBot - Commit a42402e75ddd | Author: buckyballreaction | Log: Prevent module secondary from firing if not enough energy; Other minor clean-up
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05:44:00Zoomberhi karamazovapy
05:51:00karamazovapyA
05:56:00Zoomberkaramazovapy, you should come join the #pointblank party
05:57:00karamazovapyit's a party? really?
06:01:00Zoomberkaramazovapy: do /j #pointblank
06:03:00karamazovapyI know how irc works.
06:04:00Zoombersorry, i didn't mean it like that
06:07:00Zoomberi just wanted you to join the party as quick as you could
06:07:00Zoomberpointblank is answering all my questions
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09:50:00raptorIt's a boy!
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12:35:00watusimotohello
12:35:00sam686hi
12:35:00ChanServ sets mode +o watusimoto
12:51:00watusimotoI'm totally fed up with my latest refactor
12:51:00watusimotothat stupid ClientRef crap
12:51:00watusimotothat I tried to replace
12:51:00watusimotoand am now replicating
12:51:00watusimotoI can't go back, and going forward is very painful
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14:42:00raptorIt's a boy!
14:45:00watusimotoeh?
14:45:00LordDVG Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
14:48:00raptori've got two now
14:48:00watusimotowait... your wife was pregnant?
14:49:00watusimotoyou just had a baby?
14:49:00raptoryep :)
14:49:00watusimotowell, contratulations!!
14:49:00raptorthanks!
14:49:00watusimotoI'd suggest the name "watusimoto"!
14:49:00watusimotothat's a fine boy's name
14:49:00watusimotodon't you think?
14:49:00raptori was thinking ' locutus'
14:50:00raptorbut were not sure yet...
14:50:00raptorand yes, that's a fine name
14:50:00watusimotoAh well, I prefer watusimoto, but then that's just me. I guess I had my chance
14:50:00watusimoto:-)
14:51:00raptorso now i get to skip work and work on bitfighter!
14:51:00watusimotoha!
14:51:00watusimotoyou missed my lament
14:51:00raptorClientRef nonsense?
14:51:00watusimotoyes
14:52:00raptorI subscribe to the IRC logs faithfully
14:52:00watusimotoI'm totally boxed in
14:52:00watusimotobut I'll just have to push on forward
14:53:00watusimotoespecially as you and sam have checked in, whcih makes reversion even less of an option
14:53:00raptorwell... I haven't done much with clientref stuff
14:53:00raptorcan't vouch for sam
14:55:00raptorwill forging ahead result in better code?
14:55:00watusimotomayve
14:55:00watusimotomaybe
14:56:00watusimotoI mean, it won't be worse
14:56:00watusimotoit will probably be much the same as it was before
14:56:00watusimotobut it will all need to be tested
14:56:00raptorbetter doc, hopefully?
14:56:00watusimotowell, there is really no real alternative at this opint. I need to move forward, then see if it works
14:56:00watusimotoprobably not
14:56:00watusimotowell, maybe
14:57:00watusimotoI have been trying to make lots of comments explaining why things work the way they do
14:57:00watusimotosigh
14:57:00watusimotomaybe I'll get it to compile again tonight, then I can see where I am
14:57:00watusimotostill hundreds of errors
14:57:00watusimotoand each requires some thought to fix
14:59:00raptoryeah, i've been add comments like crazy to all the code i've had to figure out to get module secondaries to work..
15:00:00sam686could always start over, or undo some changes, but if you made too many changes, that would be hard..
15:00:00raptorwe could rewrite bitfighter in java like we've always wanted to...
15:00:00raptor:)
15:00:00sam686opengl for java?
15:00:00raptorit exists!
15:00:00sam686does jave work with unsigned integers?
15:00:00raptoryep
15:01:00raptor(I'm just joking... in case you couldn't tell...)
15:01:00raptormy brain's still a little scrambled from last night
15:02:00sam686i don't think java supports unsigned integer...
15:03:00raptorhuh, how have I been programming with java for 3 years and missed that...
15:03:00raptoryou're right
15:04:00raptorI think java has some crazy wrapper classes that let you get around it..
15:05:00sam686wrapper classes = possibly more memory usage, i think... unsigned integer is used a lot in bitfighter and TNL and others...
15:05:00raptorno doubt: java uses more memory
15:06:00raptorbut wait, why are we taking about java? we should write bitfighter in python!
15:06:00sam686i know nothing about python...
15:07:00raptoras watusimoto once said: "python is a fact of life"
15:10:00raptorso i have some crazy ideas about what we could do for module secondaries
15:11:00raptorboost: nitro
15:11:00raptorshield: overload
15:11:00sam686small problem with opengl and windows is not all windows computer have opengl (even if it has direct 3d hardware), or opengl may be very slow in some windows computers...
15:12:00raptorcloak: visual jamming (disrupt other guys view)
15:13:00sam686how about a smoke screen that blocks enemies from seeing you?
15:13:00raptorsure - but i don't know how smoke would look with retro graphics
15:14:00raptorjust some ideas... watusimoto, karamazovapy what do you guys think?
15:15:00sam686retro = smoke screen have gray squiggly outline and black fill, smoke screen + retro = don't look much like smoke
15:15:00raptorhaha, yeah
15:18:00watusimoto Quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
15:19:00sam686i bet most people don't want retro computers..
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15:24:00watusimotonitro could take all remaining energy and convert it to a single impulse like a gofast
15:24:00raptoryes!
15:24:00watusimotomore energy, more gofaster
15:24:00raptorsemi-good idea?
15:24:00watusimotolittle energy, little gofaster
15:25:00watusimotobut you'd be left with no energy
15:25:00watusimotowhich would be the negative of usig it
15:25:00watusimotoperhaps
15:25:00watusimotoonly trying it would know
15:25:00watusimotowait, that made no sense!
15:26:00watusimotothat would be easy enough to test
15:26:00watusimotowe couldn't call it nitro
15:27:00watusimotoneutron
15:27:00watusimotonitron
15:29:00karamazovapyI think it would be hazardous to the game to fully enable these secondaries with the next release, but I'm not against the idea of testing them out
15:31:00watusimotowhy do you say that?
15:31:00watusimotoyou may well be rught, just curious
15:31:00raptortoo much too fast?
15:31:00karamazovapysomething like that
15:31:00karamazovapywe don't know how they'll balance with everything else
15:31:00watusimototrue
15:32:00raptorthruster!
15:32:00karamazovapyor if you can activate them accidentally in the middle of a game and screw yourself
15:32:00watusimotomaybe there could be a flag to enable them, controlled by the server, and we could enable them experimentally
15:32:00raptori can make the double-click timer really short
15:32:00karamazovapyfor example, double click activation will totally screw up bots who shield
15:32:00watusimotobots would need to explicitly activate specials
15:32:00watusimotothey wouldn't do it by simulating double click
15:33:00karamazovapythat's a good start, but people still have a habit of "strobing" things like boost
15:33:00raptoryes, right now the double-click requires the module key/button to be pressed physically
15:33:00sam686robots might have a seperate command for secondaries, probably.
15:34:00karamazovapysince it's more energy efficient for a player to strobe a module when it's needed instead of holding it down, it might be possible to double click accidentally
15:34:00karamazovapyat least for turbo and shield
15:34:00karamazovapymaybe repair...hard to say on that one
15:35:00raptor i've tried it with repair - no real advantage
15:35:00karamazovapyyeah, I didn't think so
15:35:00sam686weapons that don't have secondaries (shield) won't be affected..
15:36:00karamazovapymy main concern with a full release of secondaries is two fold: 1) that they will somehow unbalance or screw up gameplay, 2) that we'll be stuck with them for a long time between releases if they don't work as expected
15:37:00karamazovapyI cite soccer ball carrying as an idea that worked great when a couple people tooled around with it, but that utterly failed when a group of ten people logged in and had to deal with it simultaneously
15:38:00raptorgood citation
15:38:00karamazovapyyeah, they can be really cool to play around with and have unexpected quirks in a large group
15:40:00raptori just realized something with the new sensor mod - you can't see your health very well...
15:40:00karamazovapyhm...would it be possible to increase the width of the health bar when sensor is active?
15:40:00karamazovapyor thickness, maybe?
15:40:00raptoryup
15:40:00karamazovapyof each bar, I mean
15:41:00raptorbut the ship is so small...
15:41:00karamazovapyyeah
15:41:00karamazovapyhah...BITFIGHTER MOBILE
15:41:00raptorwasn't there a health bar in zap
15:41:00raptornext to the energy bar?
15:41:00karamazovapyI think Z.A.P. might've had a health bar
15:41:00sam686maybe add yellow / orange bar for your health at the bottom left of screen?
15:41:00karamazovapyyeah, this is a conversation we had a while ago
15:41:00karamazovapyI think c.bob and zoomber were enthusiastic
15:42:00raptori'm still confused about the difference between Z.A.P. and variants
15:42:00raptorand timeline
15:42:00karamazovapyzap! was the original garagegames creation that our code is based on
15:42:00sam686http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4K8I-uWc7g - there is health bar at bottom left..
15:42:00karamazovapythey stopped supporting it right away
15:42:00raptorwith exclamation
15:42:00raptorok
15:42:00karamazovapyyes, as the word "zap"
15:43:00karamazovapya few years later, shortly before watusimoto came along, garagegames went over to a web-based model that didn't require downloads, "Instant Action"
15:43:00karamazovapythey repackaged zap! as a new game with upgraded graphics called Zero All Productivity
15:43:00sam686the backgrounds of instantaction version is a little different, and seems better to me...
15:43:00karamazovapyor Z.A.P.
15:43:00watusimotoI think it might make sense to have a visual health bar at the bottom along with energy
15:44:00watusimotoor maybe some indicator below the ship for other players
15:44:00karamazovapybitfighter.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=168&p=1213
15:44:00watusimotobecause it can be really hard to see
15:44:00raptori've had newcomers ask me where the health bar was, several times
15:45:00karamazovapyZ.A.P. was so ugly
15:45:00karamazovapythat video is terrible
15:45:00raptorwas that the hybrid with grid wars?
15:45:00karamazovapyit wasn't meant as a hybrid...but yes
15:45:00watusimotolooks like a shop class is playing bf right now
15:45:00raptorerrr... more like infertile offspring
15:46:00karamazovapythey added a health bar because of that stupid little turret on the ship
15:46:00sam686instantaction version did have some extra animation, like a broken turret effect..
15:46:00karamazovapyyeah...and smoke
15:47:00watusimotook, I'm out of here... gotta leave before I get locked in the building
15:47:00karamazovapylater
15:47:00raptorlater
15:47:00watusimotono smoke... more sparks!!
15:47:00karamazovapyZ.A.P. looks soooooooooo bad
15:48:00watusimotoand once again, congratulations on your baby boy, raptor, and I'm flattered you've decided to call him watusimoto
15:48:00karamazovapythey even animated forcefields going down and the flags waving in...solar wind?
15:48:00raptorha!
15:48:00raptorthanks
15:48:00karamazovapyoh god, and the teleporter effect is like rippling water
15:49:00karamazovapyinteresting, they traded in testitems for testitems that look like asteroids but do no damage and can't be destroyed
15:50:00sam686instantaction seems to have been made for widescreen (16:9) instead of the ususal 4:3 screen..
15:51:00karamazovapythere is one fix that might be worth considering...on command view the ships are blown up in size
15:51:00sam686commander map appear to have better teleport line effect, instead of hard to see dark gray line...
15:52:00karamazovapyI'm not sure which I would like better...it's kind of nice that you're not positive exactly where teleporters will lead
15:52:00watusimoto Quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
15:52:00raptoryeah, i consider that a 'feature'
15:53:00karamazovapythey actually look kind of neat in this Z.A.P. video, but I wouldn't want to port the glowy feature
15:54:00karamazovapyso it looks to me like "Bust In" was created to fix the retrieve flag trading problem
15:54:00karamazovapyonce a flag is in a zone, it can't be removed
15:54:00karamazovapywhen all flags are in zones, it counts as a "touchdown", no matter how the flags are distributed between the teams
15:54:00karamazovapyto increase the length of the battles, they put retrieve zones in enemy bases
15:55:00raptorinteresting
15:55:00karamazovapyyeah, that video sam posted has a bustin game in the second half
15:56:00karamazovapyhmm...and they used neutral zones in CTF games to show where the flag returns
15:57:00karamazovapyugh...even watching these videos without playing, I can never see anything
16:00:00karamazovapyI guess that whole vid was a bust in and I just wasn't paying attention
16:00:00karamazovapytoo distracted by the overall crappiness
16:01:00raptor'distracted' is an excellent word to describe it
16:02:00karamazovapyI rejected Z.A.P. so quickly as a player, I didn't pay much attention to the details
16:02:00karamazovapy(when it was released)
16:02:00karamazovapyand we were all so excited when we heard the developers were coming back to the property!
16:02:00raptorhaha
16:03:00raptorseems like they spent more time on their online framework than the game...
16:03:00raptorother than the facelift stuff
16:05:00karamazovapyyeah...they changed the loadout mechanics so that you always have 5 weapons on hand...they added bust in...they created some new maps and a tutorial mode for new players...everything else was just facelift
16:39:00BFLogBot - Commit 5888bc35e47f | Author: buckyballreaction | Log: Spybug laying is sensor secondary component; increase module secondary double- click sensitivity
16:40:00raptorkaramazovapy: would you be willing to test the new sensor module with spybug laying if i can get you an 016 build?
16:41:00karamazovapysure
16:46:00raptorok let's see if this will build on my windows vm...
17:03:00sam686where did this come from? #undef main in main.cpp, also link error due to duplicate _main, but no link error in debug build?
17:05:00sam686in windows, it don't build with #undef main in main.cpp (line 1097)
17:05:00raptori thought you added that...
17:06:00raptorok karamazovapy, try this: http://208.107.52.15/upload/Bitfighter-Installer-016-sensor.exe
17:06:00raptorsorry it took a while..
17:07:00sam686i get this error, only when using "#undef main" : main.obj : error LNK2005: _main already defined in SDLmain.lib(SDL_win32_main.obj)
17:07:00karamazovapyI thought saturday night fever was kicking off when I launched
17:08:00sam686i guess somehow it got added by me, and i don't know whi it didn't fail to build till now...
17:08:00raptoroh, haha, i guess the test music was bundled...
17:08:00raptorwhen it gets annoying, just adjust music volume to 0
17:08:00karamazovapyway ahead of you
17:11:00karamazovapyI had no idea stars moving in the background made mines so much more visible
17:11:00raptoryep
17:11:00raptorinteresting stuff shows up...
17:12:00karamazovapythe stars nauseate me, though
17:12:00karamazovapydouble click works well for me, though
17:12:00raptorok
17:12:00raptorare you using controller?
17:12:00karamazovapyyes
17:12:00sam686yes, background might need to be improved...
17:13:00raptoralso, i made it so the module indicator turns orange when used - do you think the double-click sensitivity is about right?
17:13:00raptor250 ms
17:14:00karamazovapyyeah, I think the double click is good
17:14:00raptorcool
17:16:00raptorso i guess my next move is to remove spybug from the weapons selection menu
17:16:00raptorif you think this implementation will be good as is
17:16:00raptorwe can yet adjust cooldowns/energy requirements, too
17:17:00raptoror even spybug placement
17:17:00karamazovapyI think it's great implementation
17:18:00karamazovapyI might even argue that sensor was too powerful, if people ever used it
17:18:00raptorok, i consider that high praise
17:18:00raptoryeah, i think sensor is leaps and bounds above what it was..
17:19:00sam686spybug seems kind of weak and easily destroyed, spybug mostly only helps finding ships that are carrying flag..
17:21:00raptorwell, my solution to make spybug more powerful was to have placement be extended a little ways
17:21:00raptorbut i fear that sensor is already powerful enough
17:22:00sam686how about a sensor that slowly zooms out farther and farther when using it longer?
17:22:00karamazovapyhm...so it gets more powerful the longer it goes unnoticed?
17:23:00raptoryo umean spybug?
17:23:00karamazovapyI think that's what he meant...?
17:24:00sam686spybug seems to cost too much energy, and enemy using sensor (or even without sensor) could see and destroy spybug
17:24:00raptorone thing to remember - energy recharge is a little faster
17:24:00raptorwhen not moving
17:27:00sam686mines and spybug is much easier to see when raising up your gamma in graphics options: http://208.107.52.15/bitfighter/gamma.png
17:29:00BFLogBot - Commit 57a39c353004 | Author: buckyballreaction | Log: Alter NSIS script for 016
17:30:00raptorwe could also reduce spybug to a pixel
17:33:00sam686what may look like this http://208.107.52.15/bitfighter/gamma1.png with high gamma will look like this: http://208.107.52.15/bitfighter/gamma3.png
17:35:00raptorwatusimoto had the idea of completely hiding mines until you were almost right on top of them
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17:36:00raptornot sure how to go about doing that though..
17:37:00karamazovapythere will always be ways to cheat
17:38:00karamazovapymy gamma settings don't seem to have any effect...but I don't have much interest in exploring it
17:42:00raptorkaramazovapy: what would you say to some of the ideas to make spybug more powerful:
17:42:00raptor1. decrease energy usage
17:43:00raptor2. allow placement in walls
17:43:00raptor3. make graphical footprint smaller
17:44:00BFLogBot - Commit 1bb77c23ad7b | Author: buckyballreaction | Log: Goodbye spybug weapon loadout
17:46:00sam686seems kind of silly to have Armor module turns orange when it does nothing...
17:47:00raptorhaha
17:47:00raptorthat's the thing
17:47:00sam686also, i see all other weapons go orange when there is no secondary...
17:47:00raptori was anticipating adding more secondaries
17:48:00sam686also, i find that placing spybug will place it at the tip of your ship and not the middle, which might not be right for joystick users...
17:48:00sam686(joystick don't have a button to fire)
17:48:00karamazovapy(but you can face a direction without firing)
17:49:00karamazovapysmaller footprint for which team?
17:49:00raptorthe opposing team would see a pixel
17:49:00raptorinstead of a gray circle
17:49:00raptoror maybe an even darker circle
17:49:00karamazovapyI could see a smaller circle or a darker circle
17:50:00karamazovapyI thought maybe you were interested in making it less obvious to players with sensor
17:50:00raptori was taking about standard detection by opposing team
17:51:00sam686what does that smaller circle do when a ship go over it? nothing?
17:51:00karamazovapyI haven't seen that as one of the primary shortcomings, but whatever
17:51:00raptorok, i haven't played with people who've used them much
17:52:00raptorso i don't really kow
17:52:00raptorknow
17:52:00sam686somehow a smaller gray circle goes on top of ship....
17:52:00karamazovapythey're visible, but you don't notice them so readily if the other player is smart or if the game is intense
18:25:00raptor Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
20:48:00karamazovapyhumble bundle is in danger of overfishing the well
20:50:00koda has joined
21:04:00BFLogBot - Commit 6b95275a10c5 | Author: buckyballreaction | Log: Clean-up of ship.h header; move declarations into .cpp
21:10:00raptor has joined
21:10:00ChanServ sets mode +o raptor
21:10:00raptori don't get this humble bundle
21:10:00raptorjust one game?
21:16:00raptorok, what's next? health bar above or below energy bar?
21:18:00karamazovapyI don't want a health bar, but I sense this one isn't going to go my way
21:18:00raptorwhat would be a good alternative for sensor?
21:18:00raptori kind of think a health bar is rarely used anyways... you just shoot until your dead
21:19:00sam686can a sensor see the enemy's energy level?
21:20:00raptorsam686: i get a segfault every once in a while, while I test sensor on 'Asteroid 1' level: http://pastie.org/2607834
21:20:00karamazovapywhat do you mean, a good alternative for sensor?
21:21:00raptorkaramazovapy: i meant, if it is important to see some sort of health bar, how can we make it more prominent when using the sensor module (because we're zoomed out so much..)
21:22:00karamazovapywell it seems odd to change the health indicator when using sensor, so my guess is that we wind up with a health bar at the bottom of the screen...but we could go all warcraft/starcraft and have a little bar above the ship
21:22:00sam686Shields and energy is what make the health bar a bit less important it looks like...
21:24:00sam686a lot of shooting games have health bar, or health number, or similar..
21:24:00raptorno warcraft style - yuk
21:26:00sam686i have a problem in 016 with /addbot restarting the level instead of adding bots like it should..
21:26:00karamazovapyI wouldn't pick it either, but it's one solution
21:26:00raptorthat might be my fault, sam686... le t me check
21:31:00raptori don't think i did that sam686
21:33:00raptorit might have something to do with watusimoto's client ref changes
21:33:00raptorbut not sure
21:36:00raptorok, well i'm out until later tonight...
21:36:00raptor Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
21:46:00Flynnn Quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
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23:02:00koda Quit (Quit: k thx bai)
23:17:00Flynnn Quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
23:38:00Zoomber has joined
23:38:00ChanServ sets mode +v Zoomber
23:38:00Zoomberhey sam686 you awake?
23:39:00sam686hi
23:39:00Zoomberyou have 3 monitors right?
23:39:00sam686yes, but usually i use 2...
23:40:00BFLogBot - Commit 355f895d024b | Author: sam8641 | Log: Fix LevelGen, Why use #undef main? (rev 117dece29e5b )
23:40:00sam686i can simply turn on third monitor and enable it...
23:40:00Zoomberi finally got my adapter, so i have twoo
23:40:00Zoomberand i was wondering,
23:40:00Zoombershould i put IRC in this screen
23:40:00Zoomberor the other?
23:51:00Zoomberkaramazovapy has been on btitfighters new forums for about 582 days im guessing

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