#bitfighter IRC Log

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IRC Log for 2012-11-06

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

00:11:12raptor has joined
00:11:12ChanServ sets mode +o raptor
00:18:36amgine1234567890hey any new complied version?
00:49:51raptorhi
00:50:19raptorsorry, not yet - watusimoto is still making some major changes
01:05:23amgine1234567890ok just say test and ill be there
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03:07:04Fordcarshi
03:07:08raptorhi
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07:19:32BFLogBot Commit: 12e2d14eba3d | Author: watusimoto | Message: Move constructor up to be consistent with other .h file layouts
07:19:34BFLogBot Commit: efa410d1b386 | Author: watusimoto | Message: Formatting
07:19:35BFLogBot Commit: df9200ec9bbd | Author: watusimoto | Message: Formatting, make method static
07:19:37BFLogBot Commit: 24834ae4a9b0 | Author: watusimoto | Message: Move some stuff out of barrier and put it into GeomUtils, to make things a little more understandable
07:19:38BFLogBot Commit: 640447c9c3df | Author: watusimoto | Message: Remove logging
07:19:40BFLogBot Commit: daf078907ae3 | Author: watusimoto | Message: Formatting
07:19:41BFLogBot Commit: 30f3691872ad | Author: watusimoto | Message: I think this makes the code a tad clearer
07:19:43BFLogBot Commit: eda13af4f6b8 | Author: watusimoto | Message: Comment
07:19:44BFLogBot Commit: 7ec69c5ec3a5 | Author: watusimoto | Message: Whitespace
07:19:46BFLogBot Commit: 74ca6a0f942b | Author: watusimoto | Message: Whitespace
07:19:47BFLogBot Commit: d0488e351495 | Author: watusimoto | Message: Whitespace
07:19:49BFLogBot Commit: 1ac7fb8fb69e | Author: watusimoto | Message: Make Barrier no longer be child of LineItem... see if that helps
07:19:50BFLogBot Commit: 6e2502b8283a | Author: watusimoto | Message: Fix some things that broke during the divorce
07:19:52BFLogBot Commit: 78c4f95488aa | Author: watusimoto | Message: Bad assumption
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16:02:09raptorgood morning!
16:02:52raptortoday's the day!: http://i.imgur.com/wk83w.jpg
16:51:34watusimotohi
16:51:39Wuzzyoh, hi raptor
16:52:08watusimotomy kids want to use irc to chat across the living room
16:52:14raptorhi
16:52:40watusimotofor some reason it seems like a fun idea to them, despite their difficulty typing
16:52:48watusimotomaybe I should get them voice chat
16:53:01watusimotothen they could talk to each other via the computer
16:53:55watusimotomaybe they could use bitfighter voice chat
16:56:01Wuzzyso, raptor: did you read this already?: http://bitfighter.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1605&p=16243#p16243
16:58:28watusimotolooks like 0-7 work fine
16:59:04watusimoto9 and 10 are a bit strange on the sticks i've used (they map to back and enter buttons)
16:59:12watusimotonever used a stick with an 11 button
16:59:19watusimotono idea why 8 is not working properly
16:59:26watusimotobecause it works properly on my sticks
16:59:40raptorhi again - in physics class, so off and on for a while...
16:59:50watusimotopay attention!
16:59:52raptorhi Wuzzy
16:59:54watusimotoe=mc^2!
17:00:03raptornewtonian!
17:00:08watusimotof-ma!
17:00:09raptorso
17:00:11raptoryes
17:00:12raptorthat
17:00:17raptorok joystick buttons...
17:00:38raptorthe labels are the in-game numbers, which probably don't always correspond to the RAW numbers
17:00:56raptorespecially above button 6 (raw: 5)
17:02:48Wuzzywatusimoto: actually, the Firestorm Dual Analog 3 has 12 buttons. I started counting from 0. ;-)
17:03:05watusimotoah, ok
17:03:18watusimotoso 1-8 do work, then things get a little weird
17:03:49WuzzyI understand, raptor. But isn't the generic configuration supposed to be ... let's say ... generic? ;-)
17:03:56watusimotono
17:04:06watusimotoit's supposed to work sort of when nothing else does
17:04:21watusimotoit's more a starting point for a new stick then a usable product
17:04:24raptorgeneric is just a straight mapping of raw -> in game
17:04:40raptorand raw buttons can be all over the place
17:06:33watusimotoso the joysticks.ini file remaps raw to ingame?
17:06:49raptoron any given controller, any raw button number could be any button (like the back button)
17:06:52Wuzzybut here is the problem: I expect that the game maps all raw buttons X (=any number) to label X , not to label Y (=any other number) if the generic profile is active
17:06:57raptorwatusimoto: yes
17:07:16watusimotoso Wuzzy, you'll need to use joysticks.ini to fix the broken mapping
17:07:22watusimotogeneric will not work for you
17:07:38WuzzyThat is not the point. I already have done this.
17:07:41raptorwatusimoto: maybe we should consider not having in-game button number mappings at all
17:07:52watusimotoyou can use joysticks.ini to fix the label
17:07:56Wuzzyof course I can
17:08:00watusimotoraptor: interesting idea
17:08:06raptorso instead of raw -> in-game number -> in-game action
17:08:10watusimotoWuzzy: so do that, and we'll include your fixes in 018
17:08:15raptorwe should do raw -> in-game action
17:08:16Wuzzybut the point is that the generic profile seems buggy
17:08:18watusimotoand you swon't need to do it again
17:08:25watusimotono, the generic is not buggy
17:08:37watusimotoit's just generic, and your stick isn't generic
17:08:47raptorWuzzy: the generic profile will probably fail most of the time
17:08:52WuzzyBut why?
17:08:56watusimotoraptor: we also need to show particular buttons for menus and such (e.g. quick chat)
17:09:24watusimotoWuzzy: because your stick does not work like a "generic" one. I don;t know why, it is just how the stick was made
17:09:34raptorWuzzy: the issue is hardware
17:09:53raptoryour controller might put the back button at raw input of 9, but another controller might do it at 10
17:09:56raptoror 8
17:09:58raptoror 6
17:10:01Wuzzyof course
17:10:05WuzzyI know that
17:10:11raptorthe generic just makes a guess at the most common values
17:10:11watusimotothat's why we have non-generic mappings
17:10:14watusimotoeach is different
17:10:20Wuzzywhat do you mean with "guess"?
17:10:22watusimotoit doesn't mean that generic is broken
17:10:46WuzzyI think you are not quite understanding why I started this discussion.
17:10:54raptorthere is no standard between controllers about which signal (raw #) is which button
17:10:57watusimotohe means the generic mapping will work for some theoretically generic joystick. it doesn't work for yours
17:11:19watusimotobetter said
17:11:41watusimotoif we change generic to fit your stick, it will be even more broken for someone else's
17:11:51WuzzyThe problem is that the label should simply the same thing like the raw button ID reported by the OS/library/whatever. Every game does this right, either they start by counting by 0 or 1
17:11:51watusimotoand they'll ask us why generic works less for theirs
17:12:01WuzzyWhat? No!
17:12:22Wuzzydo you know the program jstest?
17:12:27watusimotono
17:12:48raptorWuzzy: there is no raw signal standard between controllers
17:13:31raptorno standard means guesswork if you want to program a generic one
17:15:26WuzzyVirtually every game I which supports joysticks does label the buttons in a straightforward way. They start counting from 0 or from 1. But there are no strange things like swapped buttons etc. In all these games, the order of these buttons is the same. In all these games, except Bitfighter.
17:16:02watusimotoI have two joysticks at home
17:16:22watusimotothey work with some presets and not others
17:16:23raptorWuzzy: you may be right - but that means they probably guessed your joystick better than our guess
17:16:35watusimotoor maybe they recognized yours
17:16:56watusimotobut if the sticks all used the same standard, we wouldn't need stick-specific profiles
17:17:00Wuzzyi don't know what you mean with "guessing". Does it mean that even the _order_ of buttons that are reported to the game is not guaranteed?
17:17:05watusimotoall profiles would be more or less the same
17:17:09watusimotoyes
17:17:10raptorwatusimoto: correct!
17:17:13raptorooops
17:17:16watusimotothat's what rapter is saying
17:17:16raptorWuzzy: correct!
17:17:31watusimoto(well, I'm correct too :-)
17:17:34WuzzyBut if this is true, how could it even work? It seems like chaos!
17:17:41raptorWuzzy: it is chaos
17:17:44watusimotoyes!!!
17:17:46watusimotochaos!!!
17:17:48raptorevery game has their own joystick mappings
17:17:57raptorthat they have to maintain
17:17:58watusimotothat's why we need a joystick.ini file
17:18:05watusimotoI wish we didn't
17:18:14Wuzzyokay, you may be interested in the fact that I only own USB gamepads.
17:18:36WuzzyDoes USB have some sort of joystick/gamepad standard stuff?
17:18:39watusimotoso get us a working joystick.ini setting and you'll be set
17:18:46raptorWuzzy: nope :(
17:19:02raptoralso, give us your profile, and we'll add it to the game permanently
17:19:15WuzzyI heard there are these HID profiles for keyboards and mice. None for gamepads? Silly. :-(
17:19:54Wuzzy@watusimoto: I already am "set". I am talking about the general stuff.
17:20:15Wuzzyokay I will give you a profile but not yet
17:20:15watusimotogood :-)
17:20:29watusimotooverall, it's a huge pain
17:20:36Wuzzyas I said it needs some generalizations and cleanup before it could be used
17:21:07WuzzyBut there is one question: Why does the game show _empty_ circle for a button? :/
17:21:25watusimotoProbably because we haven't created graphics for buttons > 10 ???
17:21:33raptoryeah or > 8
17:21:38watusimotoyours is the first to need it
17:21:44watusimotobut we can create some
17:21:54raptorok, have to go... be back in a few!
17:22:07Wuzzyhaha, that's funny. In my config, it can seamlessly show a "10" and an "11" in a circle. :P
17:22:19raptor Quit ()
17:29:59watusimotook, gotta go... be back later
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21:35:22raptorhello
21:38:36Watusimotohi
21:38:42raptorhi
21:38:56raptorthink the joystick problems finally sunk into Wuzzy?
21:39:01raptor(I hope so)
21:39:02Watusimotono
21:39:03BFLogBot Commit: 0a918bf16eaf | Author: watusimoto | Message: Formatting
21:39:04BFLogBot Commit: ca10fdc11226 | Author: watusimoto | Message: Remove assert, document causes, and streamline code
21:39:11Watusimotobut maybe he'll give us his fix
21:39:19Watusimotowhich is all we really need
21:39:26raptorhis profile, you mean
21:39:30raptoryes
21:39:30Watusimotoyes
21:59:46raptoralthough i still wonder if we shouldn't dispense with the intermediate button mapping...
22:00:44raptoralthought maybe we need it for the InputCode system..
22:06:06Watusimotosomewhere we need to map joystick buttons to graphic images of those buttons
22:06:18raptorwe do in the INI
22:06:20WatusimotoI suppose we don;t really care what those butons are called underneath
22:06:28raptorIF the profile is detected
22:06:36raptorI abstracted all the button drawing
22:07:06WatusimotoI guess it doesn;t matter if the system thinks a button is called button1 -- it could be button x for all we care, so long as it changes the loadout and is associated with a (1) graphic
22:08:37Watusimotowhat does joystick.ini do, exactly?
22:09:02WatusimotoIlooking at it now
22:09:38WatusimotoI think it does exactly what we need
22:09:51WatusimotoButton1=Raw:0;Label:1;Color:White;Shape:Round
22:10:07raptoryes
22:10:12Watusimotomaps a button on the js (Button 1) to a label, color, and shape
22:10:27Watusimotoand tells us it should respond when the machine gets signal raw:0
22:10:41raptoryes
22:10:42WatusimotoI think you did it exactly right
22:10:49Watusimotowhat could we get rid of?
22:10:52raptori'm thinking it may be clearer to have the in-game buttons
22:11:01raptorinstead of being BUTTON_1
22:11:04raptorBUTTON_FIRE
22:11:53Watusimotowell, the button is labled (1) on the js itself
22:12:14Watusimotothat the user has mapped it to fire seems less clear than using the printed label
22:12:29Watusimotopress (1) to continue vs. pres [fire] to continue
22:14:30raptorwell whatever is labeled will be labeled
22:14:45raptorit will show the label/color/shape
22:15:06Watusimotothe only confusing thing is the way we handle Start and Back
22:15:13Watusimotobut that is a legacy of zap days
22:15:29raptorso maybe we should rename those to BUTTON_12 or whatever
22:15:31raptor?
22:15:31Watusimotowe should probably make those be just like any other button
22:15:39Watusimotowhatever is labeled on the js
22:15:56Watusimotoand then in define keys let the players pick their enter and back buttons
22:16:27Watusimotoso joystick.ini is purely a physical description of the stick... though it's pretty close to that now
22:16:40Watusimotoand the semantic mapping happens in the ini file
22:16:48Watusimotowhich is pretty close to how it works now
22:17:13raptorso have it be: Raw0=Label:1;Color:White;Shape:Round
22:17:19raptor?
22:17:50Watusimotothat's not what I was saying.... but that would work
22:18:09Watusimotoactually, that might be good
22:18:11raptorbut that doesn't handle the mapping to the in-game buttons..
22:18:17raptorfor each profile..
22:18:41Watusimotowhat do you mean by in-game buttons? drop/fire/module1/etc?
22:18:46raptoryes
22:18:55raptorsome mapping to those needs to be saved somewhere
22:19:01raptorfor various profiles
22:19:04Watusimotoit might be cleaner to do the Raw0= ... in js.ini
22:19:14Watusimotothen have the keymappings elsewhere
22:19:34Watusimotoprobably not in js.ini because we also have a set of keyboard bindings
22:19:55Watusimotoso either in bf.ini or perhaps in bindings.ini
22:20:09raptorbut we'd still need a mapping for each profile
22:20:12Watusimotoyes
22:20:15raptorbindings.ini is good
22:20:23raptorso a raw definition file + bindings file
22:20:34raptoror maybe both in the same file but different key/values?
22:20:43Watusimotoyes. so we'd ship the game with a set of bindings for each stick, and the user could change those via the normal channels
22:20:46raptorso raw0=... and buttonfFire=raw0
22:20:51Watusimotoyes
22:21:14Watusimotobut would it make sense to have keyboard bindings in js.ini?
22:21:24Watusimotobecause it makes sense to store keyboard bindings with stick bindings
22:21:53Watusimotoand we could have buttonBack = raw12 and get rid of buttonBack from js.ini
22:22:01raptoryes
22:22:15raptorbut the difference between keyboard and joystick is that we have profiles for joystick
22:22:32Watusimotois that really a difference?
22:22:44raptorso maybe a current profile in the INI still..
22:23:09Watusimotowe have a bidning for kb, a binding for sidewinder, a binding for wingman, a binding for...
22:23:31Watusimotoplug in a sidewinder, you get that profile
22:23:39Watusimotoplug in a wingman, you use that profile
22:23:48Watusimotounplug 'em all, you use kb profile
22:24:16Watusimotokb is only different in the sense you can select it when a js is plugged in
22:24:24Watusimotobut that's a UI function, not a function of the binding
22:26:07Watusimotoseparating the physcial descriptions from what the button does seems cleaner
22:26:09raptori guess that's true...
22:26:36raptori order all joysticks under one group in my head thought, but technically i guess they're not..
22:26:53Watusimotoyou're thinking the way the UI has trained you to think
22:27:04WatusimotoI thoguht that way too until about 5 mins ago
22:27:18Watusimotonow I'm a reformed man!
22:27:26raptorhaha
22:27:32raptorwell... ok then!
22:27:48Watusimotonothing like the zeal of the newly converted!
22:28:09Watusimotoand I found a major problem in our walls
22:28:23raptorthat they're complicated?
22:28:49Watusimotowell, that, and we store two sets of vectors of pointers to the same thing
22:29:05Watusimotoand when we delete one, the other isn;t cleared, so we get double deletes
22:29:17raptoryou mean spines vs geometry?
22:29:26raptorerr, vertices, i mean
22:29:27WatusimotoI *think* I can remove one of the dupe sets without breaking too much
22:29:28Watusimotono
22:29:42WatusimotomWallSegments[]
22:29:57Watusimotoand mWallSegmentDatabase
22:30:03Watusimotowhatever the internal vector in there is
22:30:26Watusimotoso if I can make every ref of mWallSegments get stuff from the db, we should be fine
22:30:34WatusimotoI think it will be easy
22:30:40Watusimotothere is probably another similar dupe in there too
22:30:51Watusimotobut this might stop the crashing I'm having with lua scripts
22:30:56Watusimotoand walls
22:31:20Watusimotoand make things a tad easier to understand (fewer lists of wall bits kicking about)
22:31:27raptorok
22:31:58WatusimotoI am very eager to be done with this stuff for a while
22:32:06Watusimotovery very eager
22:32:20WatusimotoI think I;ve been saying that for weeks
22:32:36raptor:)
22:39:46Watusimotothis should work fine; already nearly half way done
22:40:06raptorheh
22:40:08Watusimotoand I've gone ahead and looked at every case; only one slightly complex one, and that should be good
23:14:30Fordcars has joined
23:14:38Fordcarshello
23:14:44raptorhihi
23:15:38FordcarsI was gratefully thinking. sam686 joined a few years back, you too, then who started the whole Bitfighter thing?
23:15:51raptorWatusimoto is your man
23:15:52WatusimotoI did
23:15:58Fordcars_k? Watsumoto?
23:16:02WatusimotoI did
23:16:05FordcarsAh
23:16:08raptorsam686 and I join within a week or two of each other...
23:16:18FordcarsThank you!!!!!!!
23:16:54Watusimotowhat timing
23:16:58Fordcarsah!!!!!!!!!! I joined like only about a year or something ago.
23:16:59Watusimotoyears in the wildneress
23:17:06Watusimotothen sam and raptor happen along
23:17:37Fordcarsah
23:17:42Fordcarsyes
23:18:07raptorheh, now you have company in the wilderness
23:18:22FordcarsAnd they happened to be awesome programmers.
23:18:29raptorerrr...
23:19:05raptorsam686 yes - i'm just good at faking it :)
23:19:25Watusimotowe survive
23:19:41WatusimotoJust cleaning up some build errors... hopefully this will work
23:19:50raptordun dun dun
23:22:25Fordcarswell you sure are better than me!
23:22:35raptoryou're on Mac right Fordcars?
23:23:30Fordcarswell yes but I also have windows for games because I have a PPC Mac
23:24:07raptori just heard today that Apple might want to support their desktop on ARM someday...
23:24:33Fordcarsreally? ARM is like IBM, right?
23:24:45raptorARM is a separate entity
23:24:52raptormost mobile devices use ARM
23:25:07raptorit's a CPU architecture like Intel or PPC
23:25:55Watusimotogreat news on my refactor!
23:26:00Watusimotoit still crashes1
23:26:10raptorhmmm
23:26:18Watusimotobut that's because I found a SECOND duplicate array, and it;s crashing on that now
23:26:24Watusimotoso it actually is good news
23:26:36raptordoes that mean a 'triplicate' array?
23:27:20FordcarsAh ok sorry got mixed upped with the POWER architecture from IBM (some console actually use this)
23:27:39raptorthat's PPC
23:29:06Watusimotono, two sets of two
23:29:10Watusimotonot one set of three
23:29:26Watusimotosecond one was easy to get rid of
23:29:27Watusimotoalready done
23:29:35raptorand this is irrespective of client/server copies?
23:31:23Fordcarsoh haha sorry the console I was talking about actually use ARM.
23:31:38FordcarsARM1
23:32:33Watusimotoyes
23:34:14Fordcarsso I have to go eat so I will be back in an hour
23:34:28FordcarsBye!
23:34:33raptorbye
23:38:46Watusimotoyay! crash gone!
23:39:04Watusimotonew artificats in editor, but this is great! I had been stumped by this for a while
23:39:20raptorheh
23:39:41raptorwow - i didn't know you make quickchat commands
23:39:49raptoryou *can
23:40:00raptorwhen did that happen?
23:41:51WatusimotoI think a while ago
23:41:56Watusimotopretty cool, eh?
23:42:00raptoryeah...
23:42:03Watusimotosam's handiwork
23:42:10raptorsam686 must have snuck that in..
23:58:34BFLogBot Commit: e0bd45b2d02b | Author: watusimoto | Message: Add color
23:58:36BFLogBot Commit: cd9edce569a0 | Author: watusimoto | Message: Break up our remove method into more functional chunks
23:58:37BFLogBot Commit: 18261babe8a7 | Author: watusimoto | Message: And put it back together. Also add new removeObjects signature
23:58:39BFLogBot Commit: 608b53f59c00 | Author: watusimoto | Message: Remove duplicate wall edge vector
23:58:40BFLogBot Commit: f708bfc36051 | Author: watusimoto | Message: Remove another duplicate vector. No more double delete crashes!!!
23:58:42BFLogBot Commit: e475d47387fc | Author: watusimoto | Message: Fix wall edge glitch in editor introduced by recenet edits
23:58:48raptorhaha
23:59:39Watusimotoso I *think* that the editor/wall stuff works as well as it ever did, no real bugs introduced
23:59:56WatusimotoI haven;t tested every use case with lua yet, but I know of none that are currently broken

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