Timestamps are in GMT/BST.
| 00:17:34 | kaen | so sorry :< |
| 00:18:11 | raptor | kaen: after all of my searching, someone in debian-mentors just told me that you can do Files-Excluded: in debian/copyright |
| 00:18:22 | kaen | whaaaaaa |
| 00:18:25 | raptor | i know! |
| 00:18:42 | raptor | he also said it is not documented anywhere but in the 'uscan' man page |
| 00:18:50 | kaen | wtf |
| 00:19:03 | kaen | pardon my french acronym |
| 00:19:10 | raptor | where's the food! |
| 00:19:15 | kaen | ah... yes |
| 00:20:49 | YoshiSmb | you're a raptor |
| 00:20:55 | YoshiSmb | find food you'r self! |
| 00:26:29 | kaen | ah yes |
| 00:26:31 | kaen | friday night |
| 00:26:40 | kaen | what an excellent time for the db servers to go pear shaped |
| 00:27:01 | kaen | and who would be first in line for call, but yours truly |
| 00:27:04 | raptor | pear-shaped? |
| 00:27:33 | kaen | I don't really know the etymology, but "go down" |
| 00:27:54 | kaen | coworkers all say it so it's habit now |
| 00:29:15 | kaen | someone got on and rebuilt a massive index, and locked up the primary for 20 minutes |
| 00:29:27 | kaen | which put all the secondaries into a state of "eventual consistency" |
| 00:29:33 | raptor | ah... maybe it's a joke about the cylinder shape that represents databases? |
| 00:29:39 | raptor | haha |
| 00:29:47 | kaen | so the app was erroring out |
| 00:30:05 | kaen | the more I think about it, the less sense that expression makes |
| 00:30:49 | kaen | oh well. all sorted now. better 9pm than the middle of the night I suppose |
| 00:31:12 | raptor | if i may ask - what DB technology is it? |
| 00:32:06 | kaen | mongodb of course |
| 00:32:11 | raptor | we use a combination of oracle, SAP, and mysql at work |
| 00:32:14 | raptor | all traditional |
| 00:32:23 | raptor | mongodb... hmmm |
| 00:32:35 | kaen | you should use mongodb for everything raptor |
| 00:32:41 | raptor | ahh... it's NoSQL |
| 00:32:49 | kaen | especially data that fits perfectly in traditional relational databases |
| 00:32:51 | raptor | or giant-hashmap-in-the-sky |
| 00:32:57 | kaen | ahahah |
| 00:33:10 | kaen | (all sarcasm, of course) |
| 00:33:16 | raptor | haha |
| 00:33:57 | raptor | ever since the NoSQL databases gained in popularity, I haven't heard much about them |
| 00:34:00 | kaen | I have zero problems with our mysql clients |
| 00:34:08 | kaen | I have weekly problems with mongo clients |
| 00:34:20 | raptor | almost like it was a fad |
| 00:34:27 | kaen | it's a brilliant business model |
| 00:34:38 | kaen | they sell a popular, weird, hard-to-use-correctly thing |
| 00:34:47 | kaen | and also paid support for that thing |
| 00:34:52 | kaen | er |
| 00:34:54 | kaen | give away |
| 00:35:10 | kaen | they only sell peripheral things |
| 00:35:17 | raptor | they give away the software but do paid support |
| 00:35:20 | kaen | right |
| 00:35:38 | kaen | and some backup/monitoring stuff |
| 00:37:13 | raptor | this page makes me smile: http://www.mongodb.com/leading-nosql-database |
| 00:37:23 | raptor | they're smart - they don't name competitors |
| 00:37:42 | kaen | hah |
| 00:38:07 | kaen | it's so weird that it has maintained popularity |
| 00:38:26 | raptor | "Although it is challenging to quantify database adoption and market share, there are a number of metrics — such as Google searches" |
| 00:38:34 | kaen | lmao |
| 00:38:37 | raptor | ... makes me smile |
| 00:38:56 | kaen | I laughed audibly |
| 00:39:26 | kaen | I hope it's just a fad |
| 00:39:29 | YoshiSmb | If i was a moderator on a forum, i could apply my special 'Ban Hammer' or something. (just trying to get attention) |
| 00:39:41 | kaen | the hardware required to run it at scale is astounding |
| 00:39:44 | kaen | well |
| 00:39:57 | kaen | the hardware that's *insufficient* to run it at scale is astounding |
| 00:40:06 | raptor | NoSQL always seemed like they were trying to reinvent the wheel |
| 00:40:10 | Watusimoto | 90% of people who use mongodb should be using sql |
| 00:40:19 | raptor | Watusimoto is here! |
| 00:40:24 | kaen | it's so so good for data structured like a hash map |
| 00:40:32 | kaen | it's terrible for data structured like a spreadsheet |
| 00:40:41 | Watusimoto | integrity is excellent with nosql |
| 00:40:52 | Watusimoto | no possibility of random unfixable corruption |
| 00:41:32 | raptor | I usually don't believe people when they start a statement with 'no possibility' |
| 00:41:37 | kaen | as long as your oplog headroom is high enough :P |
| 00:42:16 | Watusimoto | sorry, reading back it is unclear i was being sarcastic |
| 00:42:21 | kaen | oh lmao |
| 00:42:24 | raptor | ha |
| 00:42:29 | kaen | that's a half-truth of nosql |
| 00:42:54 | Watusimoto | yes, I suppose |
| 00:43:12 | Watusimoto | some data really is structured like an xml document |
| 00:43:13 | kaen | but the performance makes your estimated oplog headroom a "good guess" |
| 00:43:24 | Watusimoto | but most can be rendered down to a normalized table structure |
| 00:43:28 | kaen | exactly |
| 00:43:39 | kaen | the clients with most success using mongo |
| 00:43:44 | Watusimoto | and most of that is best handled by sql |
| 00:43:47 | kaen | are using it for a subset of data that fits the usecase |
| 00:43:54 | kaen | and putting the rest in RDB |
| 00:44:19 | Watusimoto | that would be the way to do it |
| 00:44:21 | kaen | we have two clients that use it as their only persistent data store |
| 00:44:33 | kaen | and that's where I spend maybe 50% of my time |
| 00:44:39 | raptor | after working with XML for so many years, i think it's safe to say that *all* data is structured like an XML document |
| 00:44:40 | Watusimoto | though postgres now has key-value datatypes that can fulfill some of the unstructured data niche |
| 00:44:47 | Watusimoto | in a tabular environment |
| 00:45:01 | kaen | yes, I've used that. it's very nice |
| 00:45:04 | Watusimoto | raptor: that's really sad |
| 00:45:11 | Watusimoto | :-) |
| 00:45:13 | raptor | haha |
| 00:45:17 | kaen | lol |
| 00:45:26 | Watusimoto | postgres is a really great database |
| 00:45:36 | Watusimoto | good for regular data, great for spatial data |
| 00:45:46 | Watusimoto | the k-v stuff looks good (never tried it though) |
| 00:45:51 | Watusimoto | robust |
| 00:45:54 | Watusimoto | open source |
| 00:45:56 | Watusimoto | etc. |
| 00:45:59 | raptor | ever heard of hsqldb ? |
| 00:46:04 | Watusimoto | no |
| 00:46:36 | Watusimoto | I also love sqlite, mostly for what it isn't |
| 00:46:45 | kaen | yes! |
| 00:47:02 | Watusimoto | it's really a good enough solution for many uses, without most of the headaches |
| 00:47:41 | raptor | kaen: mind if i nuke our bitfighter-debian repo and re-import? I'm going to start doing things with that Files-Excluded |
| 00:48:01 | kaen | bombs away! |
| 00:48:24 | kaen | I think lintian will still whine about dlls and resource files in the orig tarball though |
| 00:48:34 | kaen | could be wrong |
| 00:49:09 | raptor | the debian guy said the orig tarball is repackaged without them |
| 00:49:16 | kaen | ahh |
| 00:49:16 | kaen | ok |
| 00:49:24 | kaen | that sounds right |
| 00:51:19 | fordcars | Welp, I should go to bed |
| 00:51:29 | raptor | night! |
| 00:51:51 | fordcars | Night! |
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| 00:53:06 | YoshiSmb | I hope Ford 'Cars' haven't crashed into something, that would cost him to much money... |
| 00:56:10 | raptor | speaking of sqlite... we've had it in bitfighter for years now and i don't think a single person has used it |
| 00:58:21 | Nothing_Much | what's sqlite for anyways? |
| 00:58:31 | raptor | proof in point! |
| 00:58:44 | Nothing_Much | raptor: i thought it was used for a server thing o.o |
| 00:59:14 | raptor | yes it is - for dedicated server stats recording |
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| 01:06:42 | Nothing_Much | oh.. |
| 01:06:47 | Nothing_Much | how to do that? |
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| 01:07:17 | raptor | you can enable it in the INI... but you have to know SQL to get the stats back out |
| 01:07:45 | Watusimoto | I think it's mainly for when you can't connect to master for some reason |
| 01:08:11 | raptor | i think we added it thinking dedicated server owners can keep their own stats |
| 01:08:45 | Watusimoto | we should have known better :-) |
| 01:09:04 | raptor | but i don't think it has a relationship to master - its either on or off for server stats recording |
| 01:22:34 | raptor | also, we compile the master with optional sqlite support |
| 01:22:45 | raptor | but only if you don't want to use mysql |
| 01:23:09 | raptor | so maybe we keep sqlite around just for local testing, but remove it from the main game? |
| 01:24:52 | Watusimoto | yeah, I don't know. I hate removing stuff, but if it only adds complexity... |
| 01:38:30 | YoshiSmb | brb, i'm studying right now! |
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| 02:02:03 | Watusimoto | oh raptor |
| 02:02:13 | Watusimoto | I wanted to ask about that list of editor tasks |
| 02:02:14 | raptor | hmm¿ |
| 02:02:24 | raptor | ok |
| 02:02:29 | Watusimoto | specifically vertex dragging with shift will replace the object under the mouse with the smallest index vertex |
| 02:02:39 | Watusimoto | I can't reproduce in 020 |
| 02:02:57 | raptor | hmmm... let me try |
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| 02:03:05 | Watusimoto | or maybe I don't understand it |
| 02:03:15 | raptor | make a barrier with 6 vertices |
| 02:03:19 | raptor | select the middle 4 |
| 02:03:46 | raptor | hold shift and drag them, but drag from a higher-indexed one |
| 02:03:52 | raptor | at least that was in 019d |
| 02:03:59 | Watusimoto | ah, ok |
| 02:04:07 | Watusimoto | yes, I understand |
| 02:04:10 | Watusimoto | also in 020 |
| 02:04:16 | raptor | ok |
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| 02:12:09 | raptor | have you fixed others on that editor issues list? |
| 02:12:16 | Watusimoto | no |
| 02:12:19 | raptor | ok |
| 02:17:33 | raptor | heading to bed... night! |
| 02:18:28 | YoshiSmb | G'Night raptor. |
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| 05:54:02 | | BFLogBot Commit: ecea013715 | Author: watusimoto | Message: Fix "vertex dragging with shift will replace the object under the mouse with the smallest index vertex", provide some test coverage, which can be expanded |
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| 19:26:12 | raptor | debian needs a dictator |
| 19:29:35 | raptor | i'm trying to think of what form of gov't debian would be... |
| 19:31:23 | raptor | there's a definite anarchy component |
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| 20:19:02 | kaen | it's a "meritocracy" |
| 20:19:50 | raptor | anarchomeritocracy |
| 20:47:32 | raptor | finally made a breakthrough - cowbuilder + pbuilder + ccache + all dependencies inside == super fast bitfighter builds (comparatively) |
| 20:55:37 | raptor | must take lots of notes |
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| 21:41:04 | Little_Apple | yo kaen |
| 21:41:26 | raptor | NET SPLIT |
| 21:41:41 | Little_Apple | stardust help! |
| 21:42:13 | raptor | kaen's around, i think, though you may have to wait a few |
| 21:42:24 | Little_Apple | alright |
| 21:42:33 | Little_Apple | im just trying out some stardust stuff |
| 21:42:36 | raptor | is it help with using it, or getting it? |
| 21:42:41 | Little_Apple | and curvify straight up isnt working |
| 21:43:38 | Little_Apple | so im not sure if im using it wrong or if its borked |
| 21:43:39 | raptor | oh |
| 21:43:51 | raptor | did you get the plugin *and* the new stardust.lua file? |
| 21:44:03 | Little_Apple | i think so |
| 21:44:14 | Little_Apple | i might need to check if the stardust file is updated |
| 21:44:50 | raptor | yeah, do that... get the new one here: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bkconrad/stardust/master/scripts/stardust.lua |
| 21:45:01 | raptor | ... if you need it |
| 21:45:08 | Little_Apple | oh hey it works now! |
| 21:45:21 | Little_Apple | ok nevermind |
| 21:45:26 | Little_Apple | im just a dingus |
| 21:45:31 | raptor | hah |
| 21:45:51 | Little_Apple | i copied all the files into the folders except for stardust.lua |
| 21:47:31 | Little_Apple | ...this works very differently than i would expect. |
| 21:48:25 | raptor | yeah, it uses something called a bezier curve |
| 21:48:30 | raptor | it's all mathy |
| 21:50:57 | Little_Apple | is there a way that it can create quarter circles with a few vertices as reference? |
| 21:51:25 | Little_Apple | thats basically all i want :P |
| 21:52:36 | raptor | if you want exact circles, i don't think that plugin will help - you should use the 'create arc' plugin |
| 21:53:06 | Little_Apple | yea i dont really like how that one works either heh |
| 21:54:45 | Little_Apple | curvify is just way more unpredictable than i thought it would be |
| 21:56:27 | raptor | what bezier power are you using? |
| 21:56:44 | raptor | it's more predictable the lower you go |
| 21:56:47 | raptor | like 20 |
| 21:58:51 | Little_Apple | its weird that it moves the position of one of the end vertices... |
| 21:59:06 | raptor | yes |
| 21:59:21 | raptor | bezier curves sort of use the vertices as 'rotate points' |
| 22:00:09 | Little_Apple | this is kinda bizarre |
| 22:04:33 | Little_Apple | it would be neat if you could curvify by selecting a few vertices instead of having to select the whole wall/polywall |
| 22:05:45 | kaen | hi |
| 22:05:53 | Little_Apple | yo kaen |
| 22:05:59 | Little_Apple | why curvify so wack |
| 22:06:23 | kaen | parametric third degree polynomials with arbitrary roots |
| 22:06:26 | kaen | next question. |
| 22:06:50 | Little_Apple | why isnt it all i wanted in my hopes and dreams |
| 22:07:12 | kaen | it is |
| 22:07:17 | kaen | are you having a specific problem? |
| 22:07:27 | Little_Apple | not the ones i thought i had |
| 22:07:58 | kaen | "<Little_Apple> its weird that it moves the position of one of the end vertices..." |
| 22:08:06 | kaen | can you explain show me a screen shot? |
| 22:08:19 | kaen | it should actually pass precisely through each vertex |
| 22:08:32 | Little_Apple | one sec |
| 22:10:07 | kaen | sounds like an off-by-one error |
| 22:10:18 | kaen | really common in bitfighter geometry ... |
| 22:10:51 | Little_Apple | http://i.imgur.com/mqzdcaE.png |
| 22:11:15 | Little_Apple | the curvified version doesnt line up exactly |
| 22:11:21 | kaen | what "curviness" did you use |
| 22:11:28 | Little_Apple | 50 50 |
| 22:12:26 | kaen | hmm |
| 22:12:37 | kaen | can you show me what happens at 100? |
| 22:12:54 | Little_Apple | its off by a bit more |
| 22:13:42 | Little_Apple | http://i.imgur.com/GHshzCt.png |
| 22:14:18 | kaen | yep |
| 22:14:23 | kaen | definitely an off by one bug |
| 22:14:30 | Little_Apple | so uh |
| 22:14:50 | Little_Apple | its not supposed to happen? |
| 22:14:54 | kaen | no |
| 22:15:01 | Little_Apple | oh ok |
| 22:15:03 | kaen | it's supposed to pass through every vertex in the original shape |
| 22:15:09 | kaen | including the last/first one |
| 22:15:24 | Little_Apple | but it skips the last? |
| 22:15:28 | kaen | it should not |
| 22:15:30 | kaen | but it appears to |
| 22:15:34 | Little_Apple | ah |
| 22:16:13 | kaen | I have to do some chores |
| 22:16:16 | kaen | but then I will fix it |
| 22:16:21 | kaen | maybe an hour |
| 22:16:48 | Little_Apple | alrighty |
| 22:18:35 | kaen | and you just downloaded these from github, right? |
| 22:18:53 | kaen | the whole zip and unpacked it? |
| 22:18:55 | kaen | Little_Apple? |
| 22:19:27 | Little_Apple | yep |
| 22:19:39 | Little_Apple | stardust and curvify pretty sure |
| 22:20:00 | Little_Apple | i might have a few others that are outdated but im pretty sure those two are up to date |
| 22:23:25 | Little_Apple | but yea this is really neat |
| 22:23:28 | kaen | bah |
| 22:23:31 | kaen | just confirmed it |
| 22:23:32 | kaen | ok fixing |
| 22:23:41 | kaen | pesky Little_Apple |
| 22:23:43 | Little_Apple | i just have to figure out how to use it.. |
| 22:23:48 | kaen | with your legitimate bug reports |
| 22:23:50 | Little_Apple | heh |
| 22:24:07 | Little_Apple | sorry! |
| 22:29:17 | raptor | i think i'm going to ditch git for everything other than the 'debian' directory |
| 22:29:35 | Little_Apple | this is actually pretty cool.. ill be using this in the future |
| 22:29:49 | raptor | this is just too nutso - there is no workflow that isn't complicated but having to repack the upstream tarball |
| 22:29:50 | Little_Apple | im off for tonight |
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| 22:30:57 | kaen | bah just missed him |
| 22:31:09 | kaen | just pushed a fix :P |
| 22:31:57 | kaen | if you "curvify" a square |
| 22:32:01 | kaen | it produces a circle |
| 22:32:08 | kaen | square polywall, or closed square wall |
| 22:32:18 | kaen | I think that's proof of the mathematical soundness |
| 22:32:45 | raptor | ha! |
| 22:32:46 | raptor | nea |
| 22:32:48 | raptor | t |
| 22:33:54 | kaen | maybe not |
| 22:34:00 | kaen | it only happens at curviness 40 |
| 22:34:13 | kaen | which is a weird magic number |
| 22:35:15 | raptor | that's odd |
| 22:35:42 | kaen | I picked that number the same way 255 was picked as default grid size |
| 22:35:46 | kaen | it just "felt right" |
| 22:35:49 | raptor | haha |
| 22:36:18 | kaen | weird. just more proof that I do not truly understand what I have implemented here |
| 22:49:46 | raptor | ok, heading to bed early. I might not be on tomorrow... |
| 22:50:37 | raptor | getting closer to doing a decent workflow in debian - i just have to figure out a few more things |
| 22:50:40 | raptor | night! |
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