I'm hankering for a controversial argument

[Quartz]

bobdaduck: I think once watusimoto was trying to make a point
bobdaduck: he was like "I'll get rid of engineer if you'll get rid of dungeons"
bobdaduck: I'm like, "uhhh, deal."
Quartz: yeah seriously
Quartz: I'd take him up on that

Discuss.

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[Quartz]

WTF it's Lamp! How ya been buddy??

[bobdaduck]

LOL

Lamp comes back from the grave to protest a discussion about removing dungeons

I LOVE THIS GUY.

[kaen]

THIS IS NOW A LAMP THREAD

WTF IS A LAMP?

[Quartz]

Thanks. You guys suck. Mind replying to the actual topic?

The topic being the controversial position of Dungeons? Eh, haven't played any in a long time, the dungeons I have played I've found rather dull. They were nothing but tedious in my view. As for Engineer? Don't like it. Never have really, but I tolerate i to an extent.

[bobdaduck]

A discussion about dungeons doesn't have nearly as much merit as a discussion about lamp.

[kaen]

Not to be all lame and pragmatic, but if you don't like it, don't use it (or play it)

or enable it

[Skybax]

Or rage about it.

I LIKE DUNGEONS AND ENGINEER

BITE ME

[Quartz]

Not to be all lame and pragmatic, but if you don't like it, don't use it (or play it)

As long as we're being total "geniuses" I think it's worth pointing out that not a lot of people play Bitfighter. (I know you're all shocked by this statement) And when people are playing, everyone tends to be in the same server. I'm not exactly inclined to quit a server the moment a level with Engineer enabled comes up. To do so would pretty much make me a prick, and by behaving in such a way I'm encouraging others to act similarly; to quit the moment a level comes up that they don't like.

So yes, I don't put Engineer in my own maps, but others are going to once in a while, of course. And I'm going to play through them because I'm not enough of a dick to ragequit due to one map coming up that I don't like.

The "simple solution" is not so simple.

I LIKE DUNGEONS AND ENGINEER

BITE ME

Dungeons = fun to make. Fun to play once or twice. Should NOT be dropped in the middle of a legitimate play-session.

Engineer = I like the concept but the execution is terribad. It needs to be a support module not an all-or-nothing "AREA DENY AN ENTIRE FREAKIN' AREA" module. The teleporters are fine. The turrets need to be turrets unique to Engineer. The projectors have to go.

[kaen]

Turrets are almost useless except when deployed in groups, so I think they need a buff. Forcefields are an interesting tactical element, but I think they need a little nerf. Teleporters are just ridiculously OP in objective games, so I think they need less health in exchange for being repairable.

Engineer fits awkwardly in to small games, but in large team games (which is the future we're shooting for) I think it adds an extra strategic dimension, so I'll definitely never support its removal.

Suggestions for improvement are always welcome.

[Quartz]

Turrets are almost useless except when deployed in groups, so I think they need a buff. Forcefields are an interesting tactical element, but I think they need a little nerf. Teleporters are just ridiculously OP in objective games, so I think they need less health in exchange for being repairable.

Engineer fits awkwardly in to small games, but in large team games (which is the future we're shooting for) I think it adds an extra strategic dimension, so I'll definitely never support its removal.

Suggestions for improvement are always welcome.

Make it a support module rather than "area denial, turtle and camp" module. Let's be honest Engineer as it stands is an all or nothing deal. With limited resources it's garbage (I've tried it, many times), and with plentiful resources it gets ridiculous fast.

It needs to build things unique to the module that are actually designed around Engineer instead of being an afterthought.

[kaen]

It really is supposed to be an area denial tool, as well as a support tool. More generally, it's supposed to let you change the accessibility of areas of the map in your favor. You should be able to set up firebases to support offensive pushes, as well as reinforce the natural defenses of your own objective base. This is why it's meant for use in large team objective games.

Now, I'll concede the point that it does not do this effectively on its own. Firebases are unfeasible because the only offensive objects are turrets, which were originally designed to be defensive, and were admittedly only engineerable as an afterthought. Defensive reinforcement is usually either way too effective or prohibitively expensive with regard to time. These problems can be alleviated by specifically designing a level with firebases/reinforcement in mind, but they are symptomatic of a deeper problem (which I still can not precisely articulate).

It needs to build things unique to the module ...

My knee-jerk reaction is against this suggestion, because bitfighter is supposed to be conceptually simple and accessible to newcomers. Engineer is already pretty complex relative to other modules (I've never heard of anyone figuring it out on their own), and engineer-specific objects will make it even more so. That being said, I am again interested in reading your specific suggestions for improvement. "It sucks and you should make it better or remove it" is not very helpful.

[bobdaduck]

Let engineers decide what weapon the turret has, and add two new engineerable items: One heals allies who gets close to it (repair module in a turret) and one does similar except with energy.

Then make one that shoots circles.

[Quartz]

That being said, I am again interested in reading your specific suggestions for improvement. "It sucks and you should make it better or remove it" is not very helpful.

Cripes man, I just gave you specific suggestions.

My knee-jerk reaction is against this suggestion, because bitfighter is supposed to be conceptually simple and accessible to newcomers. Engineer is already pretty complex relative to other modules (I've never heard of anyone figuring it out on their own), and engineer-specific objects will make it even more so.

Let me be more specific on what I was thinking then. If anything my suggestion would make it simpler. Summoning up 1-2 mobile turrets maximum rather than mounted ones would result in no more need to point at walls to deploy something. That removes one aspect that makes it too complicated.

[kaen]

See, now we're making progress guys.

Health/energy sources and mobile turrets are good ideas, and I'd like to know what the other devs (and more importantly, players) think about them.

[Quartz]

See, now we're making progress guys.

Health/energy sources and mobile turrets are good ideas, and I'd like to know what the other devs (and more importantly, players) think about them.

The health/energy source is a great one, my main concern is that it would make repair redundant in matches with Engineer enabled. Steps could be taken to make sure that didn't happen, it's just worth keeping in mind.

OH GOSH HOW DID THIS HAPPEN I EDITTED YOUR POST INSTEAD OF RESPONDING TO IT -bobdaduck

Something about an energy item with a padlock of the teams color on it. And skylark likes the idea. And agrees with everything bobdaduck said.

[bobdaduck]

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN I'M SORRY SKYLARK at first I thought I had powers of mind control

I was thinking a more-turret looking thing that shoots a beam towards nearby allys, just like repair module. Except for the energy variant the beam would be yellow instead of red.

I will not have your censorship!

For the curious, I was suggesting to allow us to engineer energy/aid kits. Only teammates could use them up to prevent enemies from scooping up my hard work. But, enemies could destroy these kits. To distinguish these exclusive kits from normal kits, there could be a graphic of a padlock and chains on the energy/aid kit, in the color of the team it's reserved for.

[watusimoto]

We've talked about engineering health items before, and I think there are some problems with that idea... but the idea of an engineerable "aid station" that heals teammates is interesting. I'd be open to exploring that a bit more.

Right, I forgot about that one. Here's the (one of the?) conversation, if anyone's interested.

By "aid station," are you guys referring to something constant, that generates aid to players within a nearby vicinity, or more like a one-time use kit?

[bobdaduck]

Right, I forgot about that one. Here's the (one of the?) conversation, if anyone's interested.

By "aid station," are you guys referring to something constant, that generates aid to players within a nearby vicinity, or more like a one-time use kit?

I'm saying a new engineer item that you attach to a wall (or maybe it could actually be free floating. It has health, just like a turret. If engineered, it explodes into a resource item, just like a turret.

[Quartz]

Right, I forgot about that one. Here's the (one of the?) conversation, if anyone's interested.

By "aid station," are you guys referring to something constant, that generates aid to players within a nearby vicinity, or more like a one-time use kit?

I'm saying a new engineer item that you attach to a wall (or maybe it could actually be free floating. It has health, just like a turret. If engineered, it explodes into a resource item, just like a turret.

Yah

Sky you ever played TF2? It's pretty much like a Dispenser

Ok cool, I think we're talking about the same thing, just two different ways of visualizing it.

I'm a new,/bad player, so hi
I don't even know what dungeons are. only played with another player once - one of your programmers who wasn't exactly awesome at playing the game (I wasn't losing every time), don't remember who though

My take on engineers was that it is all or nothing like other guys said. And sort of its own part of the game, you can build tons of stuff if there's resources.
I liked the wall. Turrets sucked except in numbers, teleporter was meh. I can imagine two or more engineers setting up things at once would be dangerous
How about letting Engineers move stuff?

[Skybax]

Let engineers decide what weapon the turret has, and add two new engineerable items: One heals allies who gets close to it (repair module in a turret) and one does similar except with energy.

Then make one that shoots circles.

I agree with all of this.

Summoning up 1-2 mobile turrets maximum rather than mounted ones would result in no more need to point at walls to deploy something

FLOATING TURRETS http://bitfighter.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1071

[watusimoto]

How about letting Engineers move stuff?

The downside of that is that it would be hard to get the UI to work well. i.e. what keys to you press to move something?

one of your programmers who wasn't exactly awesome at playing the game

Most of the devs suck at this game, sadly.

nopenopenope

Engineer plus dungeon equals camping