Module Reform (but it's really just shield)

I'm feeling kind of maybe we shouldn't change shield. as modules go it's a perfect module. It does what it needs to do without fail, but usage is expensive. That's the ONLY flaw.

Let's look at the other modules

Armor
Sensor
Cloak
Turbo
Repair

Armor is unique, changing the ship itself. at mild disadvantage in firefight against a shield user which begs the question - why use armor? (Nevertheless, I think we can all agree that turbo is AWESOME with armor on - practically a requirement). armor should be a ship type, keep the weakness to bouncers

Turbo works great. It would be nice if we could choose smaller turbo boosts before we decide to use the double tap.

Sensor works against clockers, and gives you information about the map. It needs to give you more information - an energy bar above the enemy player would be great. It should not improve battle capabilities directly (e.g. more damage), only give you information

Cloak: Works well, does what it was designed for. Star bug is bug. Maybe the energy level should be hidden from sensor.

Repair: repairing works, most powerful with turrets, etc. Maybe it should repair your ship automatically if you stay still? Brainstorm needed



OP below, for reference
shields need a weakness. Simply making them take up more energy is not the solution. Attrition battles aren't fun for some of us..

armor functions, right now, as much of an alternate ship shape as an actual module. I like the armored ship's physics, would prefer if armored was an option for ship type instead of being a module.
turbo is awesome.
here's my ideas for shield; they're really just ideas, not fleshed out. What you think?

SHIELD WEAKNESS IDEAS

1. An active shield being rammed drains energy. Armor x2.
Example: Armored ship rams into shield, breaking the shield and draining all energy as a side effect.
caveat: Umm, asteroids won't do this?

2. Hits on shield drain your energy
Could help turrets the most, if you want FF to stay on. In PVP aim will be important, not just having more energy. But there are always those turbo users anyway..

I like the idea of #1 but #2 sounds more useful game-wide

edit: turbo idea

I would love a turbo option where you use big hurts of fuel
but not all
leaving you with good speed and control but also weapons energy

[bobdaduck]

Why does shield need a weakness?

well idk
I felt like it needed a weakness besides running out of energy. I ended up with the same weakness, though.

Not sure I can get behind this idea... shield is not insanely powerful as is. It's also virtually your only defense when a barrage of phasers comes crashing down upon your ship. In many circumstances, it's simply not possible to avoid weapon fire. Knowing how quickly most players die currently... why weaken such an important defense?

Instead, balance other weapons to do more damage when you run out of shield. Everyone runs out sometime.

Regarding #1, keep in mind that sometimes I crash into other players with my ship purposefully as a way to block enemies. I'd hate to see the game misread that action and diminish my shield as a result.

[kaen]

I totally agree that shield is OP. I think #2 would serve to nerf shield when used against skilled opponents, and also make it slightly less of a must-have when compared against other modules.

On the other hand, shield duels right now are a very nuanced dance of knowing when you should and shouldn't shield, while also timing your firing to minimize energy consumption while maximizing damage dealt. There's a lot of depth to this situation, so skilled players already come out on top more often than not. So shielding already has a sort of skill modifier. That being said, I'm totally in favor of rewarding skill wherever possible.

All in all, I support #2 (no comment on #1 though).
I have to mention that this could break some dungeons, but honestly who cares?

ok

you guys seem to only comment on shields tho..
Can I assume armored ships being a ship shape is a go? Yes? lol?
Armor does not feel much like a module imo. And it IS weak to bouncers..

I will ask at least. I doubt it..

[raptor]

Armor has been adjusted for 019 to see if we can't give it a bit more life - it's stronger, absorbs bounces (instead of magnifies them), and is no longer weak to bouncer

[watusimoto]

I think shields are over powered, as evidence that they are present in most loadouts. I've always thought that shields need some sort of weakness (vulnerable to a certain weapon?) but there are vocal opponents to this every time I bring it up.

I have also suggested in the past that we offer a choice of different ship bodies, kind of as a third tier of weapons/modules. The obvious ideas are a trade-off between speed, hit points, and energy capacity.

So I generally like the ideas

Actually, can we leave armors weakness to bouncers intact? I find it realistic-ish enough.
It brings to mind the USS Liberty. Israel tried for hours to destroy it but they used the weapons meant for armored warships. So it was damaged, but not sunk quickly as was the objective


Not to say either side acted well. And I'm still for keeping Israel as a state - I don't really know what was going on with that ship.

Israel, a state?

ya i was reading history, found out they tried sinking our ship in 1967.. ON PURPOSE.
but used the wrong weapons. ones meant for an armored target if i recall. so that's how we know, that ship wouldn't go down.

edit: oh I see. Yeash, I am actually for israel being a state (I mean a country)
some people want it destroyed

Oh ok, haha

[Quartz]

shields need a weakness. Simply making them take up more energy is not the solution. Attrition battles aren't fun

This I can get behind.

[watusimoto]

Alright, here is a new proposal, sure to be hated by all.

What if you could damage ships with shields if you had the sensor module? Maybe only a little damage, but it might incentivize people to use this oft-neglected module.

yes that is an awesome idea. I was thinking sensors should improve your battle capability somehow myself, but wasn't willing to suggest it.

Only key issue is with cloaks vs sensor proliferation

p.s. same reason you said: hated by all

[Skybax]

Alright, here is a new proposal, sure to be hated by all.

What if you could damage ships with shields if you had the sensor module? Maybe only a little damage, but it might incentivize people to use this oft-neglected module.

I like it.

[bobdaduck]

I'll repeat this again: Rock-paper-scissors type mechanics do not make a good game unless the game was based around them in the first place (like pokemon). Bouncer beating armor, sensor countering cloak... Much more of this and you basically have an arms race where you're constantly changing loadout just to deal with whatever the enemy is constantly changing their loadout to.

[Quartz]

I'll repeat this again: Rock-paper-scissors type mechanics do not make a good game unless the game was based around them in the first place (like pokemon). Bouncer beating armor, sensor countering cloak... Much more of this and you basically have an arms race where you're constantly changing loadout just to deal with whatever the enemy is constantly changing their loadout to.

Yeah, actual gameplay and skill deteriorates in favor of said "loadout arms race."

[Little_Apple]

What if instead of a module advantage over shield, what if it only partially surrounded the ship?

[Quartz]

What if instead of a module advantage over shield, what if it only partially surrounded the ship?

There's a thought.

bobdaduck is right.
loadout arms race could be bad, if game not dsigned with it in mine

[bobdaduck]

Shields need a weakness

Lets make it vulnerable to bullets

yeah, we should make shield be only 3 quarters. The whole shield would rotate around the player, so the open quarter would rotate around. This would bring some quite interesting game play, but I guess it would make turrets harder to kill...

[Skybax]

I don't even use shield, so I'm all for making my opponents easier to kill

We need more shield thoughts

I for one am NOT in support of this 3 sided shield idea. In all the movies I've seen you were able to pick which side the shields faced.

[Skybax]

We need more shield thoughts

I for one am NOT in support of this 3 sided shield idea. In all the movies I've seen you were able to pick which side the shields faced.

It faces the way you're facing. Don't get shot in the bum

ok i just got an idea...if it is possible, when you are using sheilds...the damage of whatever weapon you shoot is decreased by a little percentage

[bobdaduck]

Also to be clear, I'm against making shields worse in any way.

[Little_Apple]

Also to be clear, I'm against making shields worse in any way.

Now in top post

[Quartz]

Also to be clear, I'm against making shields worse in any way.

I'm with these guys unless someone comes up with an actually good idea. No offense there are a lot of interesting ideas going around but none of them are solid. I dislike the "war of attrition" battles we currently have but I think I'd dislike all of these ideas even more still.

ok i just got an idea...if it is possible, when you are using shields...the damage of whatever weapon you shoot is decreased by a little percentage

what about my idea. DX
I also don't think the shield itself should be affected.
but i mean...if there was firefights between 3 or 2 ppl activating shield...it would take a little longer to kill each other, that would give u time to shoot accurately or make a tactical move....maybe?...and its a minor percentage so...still...it also wouldn't affect the shield.

I hate to be stubborn, but I don't agree with the arguments for diminishing shield. What's a good counter to shield? Time. Energy usage. You have only ~4 seconds to use your shield continuously, and it's pretty much your only defense against enemy fire, so you naturally end up using a lot. Therefore, "time" makes for a highly effective weakness. Why stack on another?

In regard to attrition battles - you mean, like, strategic conservation of energy? This is an integral part of Bitfighter's gameplay. Limited health, chaotic weapon sprays, and small maps (typically) all tie into the importance of shield and learning to use it properly and effectively. Shield only lasts for a few seconds as is... I don't think we should penalize users for being smart with their shield and making it last.

I think shields are over powered, as evidence that they are present in most loadouts.

I don't deny that they're used frequently, but I like to think part of that is due to (a) personal preference and (b) habit given it being a default module. I also wouldn't necessarily consider it overpowered, just incredibly useful - no other module is as effective defensively as shield is.* That's a problem of module appeal, not power (well, at least not mostly).

edit: *To clarify, I acknowledge that shield is technically more powerful than some of the other modules, but I don't think reducing its strength is the solution. I think improving module appeal and changing up default loadouts would see better results.

@Wat I do like the idea of a "third tier" of ships as you put it. I'm still no fan of ship shapes, but ship "classes" - in a very basic form - are an interesting idea. It'd be great if armor didn't take up a module slot (so long as it was balanced properly, of course).

@Destroyer what happens when everyone in a firefight is using shield? Everyone loses weapon strength... doesn't that kinda balance/negate the consequence impact?

FYI taz - I know you wanted this discussion to be about a bunch of different modules, but it's pretty much only focused on shield. I would recommend just letting this topic focus on shield and making a new topic for your other ideas.

Totally. But who would choose Sensor and Repair over Shield and Boost? Shield is still a little over powered, or the others are underpowered

[Skybax]

I do Repair and Cloak lol

[watusimoto]

Making sensor weaken shield would not necessarily lead to an RPS situation... I mean... what module would defeat sensor? Any of them!!

It's more an incentive to use what is generally regarded as a useless module.

[bobdaduck]

Totally. But who would choose Sensor and Repair over Shield and Boost? Shield is still a little over powered, or the others are underpowered

Anyone who wants to be a cleric in DnD.

And at Watusimoto: Modules don't defeat modules, weapons do. Spybugs were a step in the right direction for making sensor useful, but spybugs aren't very useful themselves. Still, the problem is that the things sensor offers (vision and cloak detection) are much more situational than the things shield offers (damage prevention) and so sensor is used less often. The way to fix that is not to randomly add functions onto sensor, because in the end sensor slows turbo users, gives shield penetration, blocks repair, reveals cloak, and still isn't useful. If you want sensor to see more usage, make it do what its supposed to do better, or make what it does more valuable.

[watusimoto]

Maybe if you use sensor you should automatically win.