Rabbit Suicide Penalty

[kaen]

When you hit an asteroid in rabbit, you lose five points regardless of whether or not you have the carrot. Applying a large penalty with the carrot makes sense to me, but not for someone chasing the rabbit.

Good eye. That penalty should probably be diminished.

On a similar note (forgive the thread hijack), I also think the reward rate for getting rabbit kills should be lowered, or allowed to be edited by the level maker. By default, 5 points are awarded for a kill, while only 1 point/5 seconds is awarded for holding the flag. This puts way more value on getting kills than on actually surviving with the flag.

This seems a bit backwards to me since the primary point of the mode is to hold onto the carrot, and not get kills (Nexus is more of a hybrid - get kills while holding onto flags - and Bitmatch totally focuses on kills). Therefore, I think the default kill reward ought to be lowered, and/or allowed to be toggled by the level maker.

I made a case for it a few weeks ago here, but it's worth discussing.

Note: I am aware that you can up the point ratio to effectively lower the impact of the kill rate, but (a) that's an alternative fix, not a direct solution and (b) I think that as a default rate, it should be modified.

[Quartz]

@sky_lark I totally agree that it should be left up to the level maker. Editing the default seems pointless at that rate though.

To put it in Halo terms, it should be up to the level creator whether they want Rabbit to be more like Juggernaut or more like Oddball.*

*AKA value kills > survival or survival > kills.

[raptor]

019 allows altering the point-earn rate (default at 12 points-per-minute).

You'd want the kill points adjustable, too? That may be a little more difficult... but I'm open to it.

[Quartz]

019 allows altering the point-earn rate (default at 12 points-per-minute).

Lol I'm pretty sure I can do that in 018a. =P

[Skybax]

Does 019 also allow for you to change the rate at which you gain points in an HTF map? Because I would like that.

[raptor]

Uh yes - I guess the addition was for HTF...

[Skybax]

Uh yes - I guess the addition was for HTF...

Oh cool

[watusimoto]

I agree with kaen's original post.

[raptor]

OK, we're looking at changing the scoring for 019. Here are the current 'rules':

Event: Individual Score / Team Score
====================================
Kill enemy player: 0 / 0
Kill self: -5 / 0
Kill teammate: 0 / 0
Kill enemy turret: 0 / 0
Kill own turret: 0 / 0
Killed by asteroid: -5 / 0
Killed by turret: -5 / 0
Hold flag, per second: 1 / 1
Kill the rabbit: 5 / 5
Kill other player if you are rabbit: 5 / 5

What are peoples suggestions for changes?

[Quartz]

OK, we're looking at changing the scoring for 019. Here are the current 'rules':

Event: Individual Score / Team Score
====================================
Kill enemy player: 0 / 0
Kill self: -5 / 0
Kill teammate: 0 / 0
Kill enemy turret: 0 / 0
Kill own turret: 0 / 0
Killed by asteroid: -5 / 0
Killed by turret: -5 / 0
Hold flag, per second: 1 / 1
Kill the rabbit: 5 / 5
Kill other player if you are rabbit: 5 / 5

What are peoples suggestions for changes?

It'd be incredibly awesome to have all of these open to fiddle with ourselves on a level-by-level basis, but regardless, since you asked, I believe Killed by asteroid and turret should be 0 / 0.

[kaen]

I agree with Quartz.

No penalty encourages aggressive play.

[raptor]

Leave the -5 suicide on non-team Rabbit?

[Quartz]

Leave the -5 suicide on non-team Rabbit?

I would say so. Suicide in Rabbit can be abusive

I would raise the hold flag timer to 2/second and lower the kill points to 3/kill. Puts more focus on surviving with the carrot than actively killing enemies, and ensures someone doesn't get a crapton of points off a cheap kill (ie. player 1 weakens rabbit to 5% health, player 2 comes in and gets the shot).

[raptor]

The hold flag timer is editable in the level parameters in the editor. It has to be 1 here so it can correctly apply the multiplier specified without more complex logic.

Interesting ideas about reducing the carroit-holder kill value.

The main problem I see is that it seems Rabbit values have fluctuated in the past and we see levels built for very few points or very large amounts of points.

[Skybax]

I think the suicide penalty should stay

[watusimoto]

It'd be incredibly awesome to have all of these open to fiddle with ourselves on a level-by-level basis

To a point, I agree with you, but we are also trying to hold the "rules of the universe" somewhat constant.

Ok, I understand... but please understand that rabbit games currently are won by getting kills, not holding onto the carrot. As soon as I realized this I changed my strategy to reflect a kind of high-stakes bitmatch.

Think about it: If a fellow player steals the carrot from me then I have no rush whatsoever to catch up, because I know the few points he gets while I track him down will be meaningless when I get a kill or two.

It's not bad, it's just really different, and so I hope to get rabbit back to its roots. I understand some rabbit maps take advantage of the parameters provided to them, but I feel like estimating exactly which parameters will be good for a level is hard for a lot of level makers, and they end up leaving that stuff blank. I think we need to set something good at default, and determined level makers can set the paramaters proportionately if they so desire.

[Quartz]

It'd be incredibly awesome to have all of these open to fiddle with ourselves on a level-by-level basis

To a point, I agree with you, but we are also trying to hold the "rules of the universe" somewhat constant.

Yah, I definitely understand that.

Ok, I understand... but please understand that rabbit games currently are won by getting kills, not holding onto the carrot. As soon as I realized this I changed my strategy to reflect a kind of high-stakes bitmatch.

Think about it: If a fellow player steals the carrot from me then I have no rush whatsoever to catch up, because I know the few points he gets while I track him down will be meaningless when I get a kill or two.

It's not bad, it's just really different, and so I hope to get rabbit back to its roots. I understand some rabbit maps take advantage of the parameters provided to them, but I feel like estimating exactly which parameters will be good for a level is hard for a lot of level makers, and they end up leaving that stuff blank. I think we need to set something good at default, and determined level makers can set the paramaters proportionately if they so desire.

Yeah ... nope. Nope nope nope. I have zero desire for this game to limit patient levelmakers to compensate for incompetent levelmakers. You and wat both need to cut this sort of thing out. It's funny that bobdaduck and I are both considered great levelmakers, we've both discussed this; we aren't that amazing, we're just patient. Dumbing options down for incompetent levelmakers will NOT make the game produce better maps. It just won't.

As it stands, one can produce a Rabbit map wherein carrying the carrot is worth bank, and you simply jack the score way up. There you go, there's the gameplay you like, sky_lark. And someone can make a Rabbit map where kills are worth more than carrying. Right now we have both options. To follow your idea of jacking up the default carrying score, the developers would be making the latter rule set impossible to implement.

[Skybax]

I do see sky_lark's point though. I think the default should be set to something that always works well, and then the mapmakers can do something different if they want.

[Quartz]

I do see sky_lark's point though. I think the default should be set to something that always works well, and then the mapmakers can do something different if they want.

Well of course. But the way sky_lark suggested it would be locking people into playing it a certain way, rather than leaving it open...

[Skybax]

I didn't get that from his post.

I think we need to set something good at default, and determined level makers can set the paramaters proportionately if they so desire.

[Quartz]

Yes, after realizing his mistake in saying

I would raise the hold flag timer to 2/second and lower the kill points to 3/kill.

He proceeded to back down and speak in vague terms. I would also prefer the default Rabbit set up to value survival over kills, but until someone shows me a way to do that in concrete terms, without ruining the opportunity to do the opposite if the level maker so desires, I'm against it.

Basically speaking in vague terms about "here's what I like in gameplay" without producing any concrete terms isn't very helpful, we have plenty of that going around right now and quite frankly it's terribly annoying. It must be even more annoying for the devs.

[Skybax]

I don't see how that's a mistake. It seemed as though he was suggesting those be the default params. That doesn't mean they can't be changed, just that those would be default.

Let's get a few things clear:

1. I am not intending to oust "patient" level makers in favor of "incompetent" level makers. I do, however, support the notion of improving gameplay, even if it means eliminating options to some extent. You know me, you know I love creative freedom and putting the power in the hands of level makers. I support engineer, slip zones, and all that crazy junk because I believe in their potential.

In this case, I am not trying to target level makers; I am advocating efforts to refine a game mode which I feel is somewhat broken.

2. The manner in which I speak is not some big conspiracy. I didn't intend to "get more vague" in my second post. I just didn't have anything specific to say. I backed down from the first part of my suggestion - raising the flag hold timer to 2/second - because I didn't understand how the multiplier worked. I still stuck to the second part of my suggestion, the 3 points/kill bit, which may or may not pan out now that you've posted your thoughts.

With that said, I'm not sure I understand your argument. Level makers may still add value to getting kills by stretching the points/second in the opposite direction. If the default is 1 point/5 seconds, then change that value to be something like 1 point/10 seconds. Even if the kill value is decreased to 3 points/kill, that's still more productive than waiting ten seconds for a single point.

Watusimoto, what about allowing the level makers to edit the kill reward value in addition to the flag hold value? You can keep all that other stuff locked down, but this would facilitate all kinds of play styles AND give level makers more options. I also don't think this would complicate the game all that much, since the flag hold value can be changed as is and that hasn't made matters too complex. Perhaps a little line of text in the bottom right corner clarifying the designated values for the current map at the start of a match is in order.

Barring that, I would vote to raise the default flag hold rate to 30 points/minute. I disagree with quartz that simplifying default options won't produce better maps (correct me if I got your statement wrong, quartz). I think there are a lot of us who don't quite have the vision of a great level maker to easily determine what parameters fit the game mode best. I know I struggle even to this day in guessing how much time is good for a map, what the score limit should be, etc. That doesn't mean we're going to produce poor levels, it just means we don't have a ton of level making experience.

+1

[watusimoto]

Watusimoto, what about allowing the level makers to edit the kill reward value in addition to the flag hold value? You can keep all that other stuff locked down, but this would facilitate all kinds of play styles AND give level makers more options. I also don't think this would complicate the game all that much, since the flag hold value can be changed as is and that hasn't made matters too complex. Perhaps a little line of text in the bottom right corner clarifying the designated values for the current map at the start of a match is in order.

How would an average player know which type of rabbit game this was? (i.e. hold and run, or kill kill kill?) That's my main concern here -- that players will be confused over the true objectives of the game if they can no longer be determined from the game type. And that would give an unnecessary advantage to those who are "in the know".

Maybe we need two different game types here...

I skimmed, and had no idea rabbit was about kills until now. My score is always like 5, 0, or some negative # anyway. I suck
p.s. I assumed the rabid rabbit thing was like an easter egg. it would have never occurred to me that i could win the game by being one

[Quartz]

Watusimoto, what about allowing the level makers to edit the kill reward value in addition to the flag hold value? You can keep all that other stuff locked down, but this would facilitate all kinds of play styles AND give level makers more options. I also don't think this would complicate the game all that much, since the flag hold value can be changed as is and that hasn't made matters too complex. Perhaps a little line of text in the bottom right corner clarifying the designated values for the current map at the start of a match is in order.

How would an average player know which type of rabbit game this was? (i.e. hold and run, or kill kill kill?) That's my main concern here -- that players will be confused over the true objectives of the game if they can no longer be determined from the game type. And that would give an unnecessary advantage to those who are "in the know".

Maybe we need two different game types here...

The Halo series split off two of the Oddball variants into "Oddball" and "Juggernaut" to avoid the initial confusion in the first game when it was just Oddball, which is basically *exactly* what we're talking about. Both gametypes where you're holding the objective and one was oriented towards kills while the other was survival. We wouldn't be the first people to split it off into two gametypes, so it's not a bad idea at all.

That said I would argue if we are going to do that, that the way Rabbit is designed, it should be made the "hold and run" gametype and the "kill kill kill" gametype should be the new one. I would recommend doing some unique things for it, obviously. Its own fancy name, a different method of acquiring the uhh ... very important person? status rather than a "carrot." You guys could also mess with making the VIP more powerful in some manner.

Perhaps a little line of text in the bottom right corner clarifying the designated values for the current map at the start of a match is in order.

I had hoped some kind of indicator would suffice. Or maybe you could get a bot to compare the two values and provide some kind of output reading, ie. "Player, you should try to Kill...". Neither of which are particularly good ideas, but I'm brainstorming.

I do like the idea of two modes! Quartz is on the right track with a dedicated survival mode for Rabbit and a new VIP-esque mode, I think.

[Skybax]

The gametype of Mothership has already been suggested quite a few times, I think, and that's basically Juggernaut.