Balancing

So, I've looked into the balancing in bitfighter a lot, and I've asked around. Here are my opinions:

Weapons:
A lot of people say that phaser is over-powered, but I don't think it is. In any given circumstance, phasers do OK, but in most circumstances, a different weapon could actually do better.

Triples are just a little over powered, considering that now it only takes 2 dead-on shots to zap someone. It should be increased to roughly 2.33, so if my math is right, the shots should do about 85% of what they do now.

Bouncers no longer have the longest range in the game-- I think they should.

Bursts and mines are great as are. I'm a little nostalgic for when bursts could clear mines, but I can see why you did it.

Seekers should be bigger, just because they are so easy to use. They are easily countered with shield, but we shouldn't *assume* that people are using shields.

-------

Modules:
Boost and shield are classic, and I like them the way they are.

Cloak is good.

Some people complain that enhanced sensor reveals cloak-- they point out that it's the only example in the game where one module cancels another module out. I tend to agree. What if cloaked ships entering your screen set off an exclamation mark above your ship (if you have sensors enabled), so that you knew that a cloaked ship was near by, but you didn't know where exactly? This signal would go away if the cloaked ship left your field of view.

Armor I like. Repair I never have liked. Together they are obscene-- and this is REALLY the reason I started this thread. Armor+repair, is seriously broken.


First, let's look at armor. A truly passive module, armor costs no energy and increases your maximum health. To balance this, "wearing" armor makes the acceleration of your ship all wonky, meaning that navigating is really really hard. This seems to be a fair balance. Some people still seem to think that armor is a little OP, and they say it should cost energy. Obviously, the whole point of armor is that it's passive, so I don't think it should cost energy (besides, how would that work?). Instead I suggested that maybe armor should *reduce your maximum energy*. Said critics seemed to really like this idea. However, I think that armor is fine, as long as it is not combined with repair-- which I think is OP regardless.

REPAIR::::
Repair, in my opinion, has been the most consistently annoying thing in this game. The main cause of this is that map makers often put too many repairable items in their maps-- but that's by no means the only problem. Consider a 2v1 or a 3v2 match-up. A team with one extra player can just dedicate them to repair their base, and that will almost surely put the nail in the coffin. But setting aside those minor grievances of mine, the worst thing about repair is that when grouped with armor, a person can heal damage almost as fast as they take it, and easily outlast whomever is attacking them-- then heal up to full their abnormally high maximum health again. It seems like repair must repair by percentage and not a flat rate.

It is well accepted that repair+armor is OP. The question is how to fix it. First, no matter what other fixes are made, repair should heal a flat rate, not a percentage (if that's even a thing). Second, we could either have armor decrease your maximum energy, and possibly make repair cost more energy per second; we could make it so repair does not heal the ship that is using it; or possibly we could come up with another solution.

Some people complain that enhanced sensor reveals cloak-- they point out that it's the only example in the game where one module cancels another module out. I tend to agree. What if cloaked ships entering your screen set off an exclamation mark above your ship (if you have sensors enabled), so that you knew that a cloaked ship was near by, but you didn't know where exactly? This signal would go away if the cloaked ship left your field of view.

Here are my thoughts

Weapons.

Phaser is ok.

Bouncer could have the same stats as the phaser but at 1.25 more energy and have more range damage is way to low. possible could do no self daamge is energy was say x2 or x3 would need mroe testing

Triple : Energy use is way to high could have a tiny bit more spread and range.

Burst. : Balanced is fine.

Mine : Should not damage teammates energy needs to be way lower maybe 4-6 mines instead of 1-2

Seeker : Way to strong energy usage needs to be way higher its to easy to spam them maybe make them weaker but indestoryable.


Modules

Shield: DONT CHANGE

Turbo could be nice to have a higher boost distance cap if there was a way to adjsut your boost distance needs way lower energy usage more knockback on player would be nice.

Repair : Not strong enough its impossible to repair you base faster then it is being destroyed BY A SINGLE PLAYER repairing is to slow could use a double tap high heal for more energy as a trade off...

Cloak : Maybe a tad lower energy usage other then that is fine.

Sensor : Useless needs a mega buff more range and harder to kill and have a 5-7 sensor cap for 100% energy

Armor : Was Fixed in build 20 no change needed.

Engeneer : Lower Energy to create and and allow for creation on polywall and barriers.

[Skybax]

It's the only example in the game where one module cancels another module out

Shield literally cancels out everything. You're flipping invincible.

Here is a idea sheilds have a "health" gauge and if it breaks you cant use it for X seconds until it auto repairs itself OR you die....

It's the only example in the game where one module cancels another module out

Shield literally cancels out everything. You're flipping invincible.

Naw, it cancels damage out. It doesn't cancel out any modules.

[watusimoto]

Bouncers have a super-long range if you bounce them. Every time they hit a wall, they gain a little range (with limits, of course).

I want to change the way armor works -- I'd like to make it not impact movement, but instead be depletable... after a certain number of hits, it gets destroyed. I'm thinking each "face" would have independent hitpoints, and could be destroyed separately.

And I want to enhance repair so that when you have it, you get a little energy back each time you kill. Or, maybe, that ability should go to sensor?

[Skybax]

After a certain number of hits, it gets destroyed. I'm thinking each "face" would have independent hitpoints, and could be destroyed separately.
And I want to enhance repair so that when you have it, you get a little energy back each time you kill.

I love both of these ideas.

Could you make it so that repair doesn't heal the user himself unless they get a kill? Because right now armor+repair is broken. Nerfing that is my main concern. Probably should have made the post completely about that.

I kind of like how armor is now but your idea of it being like a personal "core" is kind of cool too.

[Quartz]

I want to change the way armor works -- I'd like to make it not impact movement, but instead be depletable... after a certain number of hits, it gets destroyed. I'm thinking each "face" would have independent hitpoints, and could be destroyed separately.

That is a very cool idea, wat. I like it.

And I want to enhance repair so that when you have it, you get a little energy back each time you kill. Or, maybe, that ability should go to sensor?

That's not a bad idea either. I kind of like furbuggy's further idea of making it so that's the only way to repair oneself. Of course, if that were done, one would likely want it to be like a half health heal or something substantial like that.

But if that were done I would really, really want Repair to actually be viable to use on teammates. As is, you have to be ridiculously close, and let's be honest, in the middle of combat and/or maneuvering it is completely impossible to repair a teammate reliably. The only solution right now is for two teammates to stop altogether and heal up, which only encourages camping.

I realize there is the potential argument of "but repairing teammates in the middle of combat would be overpowered!" but let's be real, it couldn't be any harder to kill that guy who's being repaired than the people who currently repair themselves in the middle of combat (and die horribly unless they're dodging well, too … it's certainly no substitute for Shield).

I don't know if the solution to this problem is to extend the range of the beam, add a pulse function, or what. I just know that making repair viable to use on teammates in the middle of maneuvering and/or combat would make the game a lot more team-oriented in a more practical sense, and I reckon we all want that.

[Skybax]

extend the range of the beam

This is an amazing idea that idk why nobody has thought of.

Think of a healer in basically any game. They always do it from a distance. If you could repair teammates (not turrets or ffs) from a longer distance, that would make repair immensely more useful in team based combat. Everyone needs a good healer!

FYI I've been playing ESO for the past week so I know the importance of a healer lol

Ok here are my thoughts.

Heal : Should have increased range but at the cost of a slower heal rate for example if you are really close you heal faster then when you are farther away.

Armor : Should be left as is ecexpt for the fact it should not take up a module slot and its default effect would be passive ( we would need a new module.) perhaps you can temporarly give other players nearby armor for like 5 seconds like repair.

Shield : Should be depletable (after it takes 30 damage it cannot be used for 10 seconds.) As said it makes you invincible to everything which im afraid inherently hurts other modules usefulness and will make it more favored.

Phaser : Is ok maybe a tiny bit less range on it.

Bouncer Should be buffed its damage is way to low to be useful right now perhaps give it the same stats as a faster but at the cost of x3 or x4 more energy. ( about 1/2-2/3 the shot time.)

Triple : Its energy usage is way to high and needs more range its abysmal in multiplayer as you have to get close to get a kill and then the player can jsut sheild.

Burst : Damage could be a tad higher perhaps .67 of a health gauge on a direct hit.

Mine : Energy usage is way to high should be able to use it 5-7 times before depleted energy should not damage self and team due to the fact it hinders gameplay as you and your teammates must take the time to detour around the mines and encourages trolling.

Seeker : Needs a horrible Nerf its energy usage is way to low and its easy to spam about 20 of them before you run out of energy combine that with 6 players and its impossible to dodge even with the sheild perhaps make it slighly more retarded Ie if you move so far out of range it will not dedect a player.

Okay, one thing I liked about Zap! was that everything was very simple. Each module did one specific thing and did it in the most basic, straightforward way.

As a result, I'm not a huge fan of a depletable set of armor, or a vampire-passive repair. They just seem a little complicated.

Here's a question though: if we were going to have a depletable set of armor, how would that work with loadouts? I mean, if my armor is all dinged up, could I just go and switch out for a shield?

As it stands though, I do like the idea of increasing the range of repair and getting rid of self- repair. Though it means that some of the levels with lots of repairables can get even... less fun for me, let's say.

I think armor should be passive and not take up a slot So there can be some other modules added to it.

you would have to go find a loadoutzone to change which you would probably get zapped anyways.

I think if anything Shields should be depleatable due to the fact they make you invincible to everything.

I think Self repair should stay its not to broken and was a original part of ZAP.

I still support a double tap quick heal sometimes it just takes way to long to heal and you cannot build your defenses as well as giving it more range.

Repair+armor is the only broken thing in bitfighter right now. Armor is fun the way it is, and I think it should probably stay the way it is.

Repair can stand to be fiddled with more. I say, increase the range so that it can heal allies more strategically but make it so that it doesn't self heal.

If we want to keep repair generally the way it is, then I think that armor should repair more slowly, OR that armor should lower your maximum energy in exchange for being a passive boost to health.

Ok here are my thoughts.

Heal : Should have increased range but at the cost of a slower heal rate for example if you are really close you heal faster then when you are farther away.

Armor : Should be left as is except for the fact it should not take up a module slot and its default effect would be passive ( we would need a new module.) perhaps you can temporarily give other players nearby armor for like 5 seconds like repair.

Shield : Should be depletable (after it takes 30 damage it cannot be used for 10 seconds.) As said it makes you invincible to everything which im afraid inherently hurts other modules usefulness and will make it more favored.

Phaser : Is ok maybe a tiny bit less range on it.

Bouncer Should be buffed its damage is way to low to be useful right now perhaps give it the same damage as a phaser and more range but at the cost of x3 or x4 more energy. ( about 1/2-2/3 the shot time.)

Triple : Its energy usage is way to high and needs more range its abysmal in multiplayer as you have to get close to get a kill and then the player can just shield.

Burst : Damage could be a tad higher perhaps .67 of a health gauge on a direct hit.

Mine : Energy usage is way to high should be able to use it 5-7 times before depleted energy should not damage self and team due to the fact it hinders gameplay as you and your teammates must take the time to detour around the mines and encourages trolling.

Seeker : Needs a horrible Nerf its energy usage is way to low and its easy to spam about 20 of them before you run out of energy combine that with 6 players and its impossible to dodge even with the shield perhaps make it slightly more retarded Ie if you move so far out of range it will not detect a player.

Any other thoughts anyone wants to put out?

[watusimoto]

I imagine depletable armor would get a full and instant repair when you flew through a friendly loadout zone.

Also, if armor/self-repair is a problem, we could remove self-repair ability when you have armor, but leave it otherwise as-is.

[Little_Apple]

I imagine depletable armor would get a full and instant repair when you flew through a friendly loadout zone.

Also, if armor/self-repair is a problem, we could remove self-repair ability when you have armor, but leave it otherwise as-is.

If armor doubles the amount of health one ship has, why not make it so it takes twice as long to fully heal with repair?

If armor doubles the amount of health one ship has, why not make it so it takes twice as long to fully heal with repair?

Why haven't we thought of this before

[watusimoto]

Maybe you'd have to heal your armor before healing your ship? However, you could get around that by changing your loadout to something else, then back to armor to get a full recharge.

some more ideas

Maybe you could try have armor be passive and not take a module slot and replace the other module slot with a different module.

I had a idea for a module that was a "use less energy for stuff module" or a "Regen energy faster module" (which would compliment repair) maybe call it Solorite or something"

I think it should not be repairable and instead be broken until X seconds have passed or you have died then you get it back it might be better then just having to heal longer for stuff..... ( want peoples opinion on this has no one has commented on it so im assuming your against it but I want to know why.)

I agree we definitely need more range on repair as well as a double tap quick repair ability....

[Skybax]

When did LA become the wisest person on the forum

Another interesting note I think I should all be 1 shield and in "panels" still would be to OP."

I also I think it should be breakable as I described I want feedback why its a bad idea......

still think mines or turrets should not damage teammates....or your own team

Another interesting note I think I should all be 1 shield and in "panels" still would be to OP."

I also I think it should be breakable as I described I want feedback why its a bad idea......

Sorry, not really sure what you're trying to say, could you clarify?

The reason I think it's not a good idea for shield to be breakable is because I think the mechanics of this game should be very simple and basic. Saying "shield costs energy but negates damage" is much simpler than "the shield costs energy but takes damage for you, when it is destroyed you have to wait for it to regenerate".


Again, I agree with LA, fordcars and skybax who all seem to be saying that repair should restore a flat amount of health/sec, rather than a % of health/sec.

Problem is most modules have negative side effects like cloak you are vulnerable to getting shot or armor you have a slip penalty shield has no negative side effects and makes you invincible having your shield "break" would balance it out considerably notable since over 99% of games are used with shield.

Is this possible to try with a Levelgen or something to see how viable it is or would it have to get a separate test buld?

[Skybax]

I think the drawback with shield is that it uses a crapload of energy.
Sure it makes you invincible and if you use it right it can be quite hard to beat. But it only lasts for like, what, three or four seconds nonstop? Even less if you take any offensive measures at all?

Obviously, if you don't use a shield, don't play the game like you have one and you won't die as much.

Shield is literally only good for close quarters combat where you hope your opponent's energy runs out before yours does. It doesn't last long enough to allow you to chase someone down through their bullet stream (unless you use boost which is even more of a gamble).

I can get away from you by using cloak way better than a shield.

Since this topic has turned up on the discord I thought it would be interesting to see where everyone stands on weapon balances all these years later

I stand on where I was on most the stuff years ago I dont like slip on armor I dont like friednly mines I disklike bouncers damage and range and still feeel like tripe might need a micro range buff.

[Santiago ZAP]

I think the drawback with shield is that it uses a crapload of energy.
Sure it makes you invincible and if you use it right it can be quite hard to beat. But it only lasts for like, what, three or four seconds nonstop? Even less if you take any offensive measures at all?

Obviously, if you don't use a shield, don't play the game like you have one and you won't die as much.

Shield is literally only good for close quarters combat where you hope your opponent's energy runs out before yours does. It doesn't last long enough to allow you to chase someone down through their bullet stream (unless you use boost which is even more of a gamble).

I can get away from you by using cloak way better than a shield.

But can you get away from someone while carrying a flag while your team is hunting the enemy to get your team's flag back? Shield is kind of essencial in CTF/ZC etc gamemodes

The other major problem with cloak is force feilds / random fire makes being able to sneak into enemys bases not viable.

that and spybugs and sensor flat out counter cloak (something I really despise) as thats its only purpose is to cancel out another module instead of contributing to a offesnive attack.

[Skybax]

The other major problem with cloak is force feilds / random fire makes being able to sneak into enemys bases not viable.

that and spybugs and sensor flat out counter cloak (something I really despise) as thats its only purpose is to cancel out another module instead of contributing to a offensive attack.

I disagree with this entire post. I use cloak to sneak into enemy bases constantly, despite the things you've mentioned, as do others. Just because it can be difficult and not work 100% of the time doesn't mean it's not viable. It means it's balanced. Something that works 100% of the time would be overpowered lol

Secondly, spybugs and sensor have plenty of other uses despite "canceling cloak", which honestly they don't even do. Spybugs can be used to see what enemy ships are doing even when you aren't there. And sensor is much more useful for seeing enemies before they see you than it is at countering cloak. It only even counters it if you get too close to the person with sensor. It doesn't just reveal you as soon as you come into the frame.

Thats not true for multiple reasonas quartz

1. foircefeilds make it so you have to unclock to invade the enemy base
2. random fire is very liable to kill you when your cloaked.
3 seekers flat out hard cloak unless your running cloak sheild
4.spybugs and sensor flat out reveal you to cloaked enemys which negates cloak.

cloak overall isnt very good.

[Santiago ZAP]

1. foircefeilds make it so you have to unclock to invade the enemy base

You can wait for an enemy to cross forcefields, and this is even better as a surprise factor, you can two-shot an enemy flag carrier when he thinks he's surrounded by his own forcefields!

2. random fire is very liable to kill you when your cloaked.

Hard to notice in big fights, and its more of a feature.
"imma sneak in and tank the entire enemy phasers!" is something cloak shouldn't even encourage you to do lol, If you're implying you should almost phase out of the enviroment by way of becoming intangible to enemy fire, no, I dont think this is even a good solution

3 seekers flat out hard cloak unless your running cloak sheild

Seekers to be fair suck, they just point out "they might be here!" and you can destroy a 7+ seeker barage with almost randomly fired phaser rounds, if they dont all blow up themselves from a single explosion.

Also, this should still be a thing, I think. Seekers... seek. They dont do much damage and consume a decent chunk of energy, you have to fire them AND they eonly seek in a 180 angle radius. They work for this (and only this I think? I would suggest removing the seeker burst properties since they mustly blow up themselves most of the time).

4.spybugs and sensor flat out reveal you to cloaked enemys which negates cloak.

Spybugs, as pointed out in another thread, dont reveal you to cloaked enemies, only sensor does, and if so, the user must assume a defensive role, a cloaked user vs a sensor user is still a fair fight unless the sensor player does the classic tech of spybug + burst + shield as a way to move around like a madman, having both 1 useless module when the other one notices them. I literally do not remember the last person that used sensor besides me, so Im kinda biased here

Problem is seekers will flat out hit you when y our cloaked unless you have sheild and hard counter you and even IF you have sheild eenemy ships will see the refelctions and know whereto shoot at you. ( I kinda wonder what would happen if seekers couldnt see players who were claoked because they couldnt sense it and thus seek but thats another idea enterily.)

while crossing forcefeilds while cloaked sounds ok in prinicpal there is one problem you have to wait for somone to cross which means you have alot of time for random stuff to kill you and if your not really fast they will see the extended blip time and know somone is in the other problem is even if you CAN get in you probably wont be able to get out before the cloak ends and its impossible on CTF as your revealed when cloaked if carrying a flag

[Skybax]

amgine, none of the points you've brought up are problems
they're features

ok then so we are gonna just ignore that all these drawback severly hurts the viability of the module and pretend there isnt a problem?

another weapon I was thinking about was bouncer since it has a higher energy usage could we instead give it a micro buff to do a tad more damage then phaser most times it feels like bouncer just tickles enemys and doesnt kill them (due to having a higher energy usage) but has a higher energy usage.

[Skybax]

None of those "drawbacks" hurt the viability of any of the modules. They're designed to have weaknesses on purpose.

Bouncer already has a buff that equates to it costing a bit more energy.
It's called "being able to bounce off walls"

[Santiago ZAP]

another weapon I was thinking about was bouncer since it has a higher energy usage could we instead give it a micro buff to do a tad more damage then phaser

Yeah, bouncer by itself is kinda bad, but its gimmick of bouncing off walls makes it one of the best weapons in closed spaces such as bitmatches where bouncer gets shielded, then keeps bouncing until it hits someone. Try bouncer spamming in a 8+ player bitmatch, it serves as a good alternative to having actual skill lol

ok then so we are gonna just ignore that all these drawback severly hurts the viability of the module and pretend there isnt a problem?

All modules have an insane advantage in one aspect and a disadvantage on another. High energy usage, Crippled mobility, Being vulnerable to sensor, low repair time, Having to stand still, etc. You've only presented the "Problem" of "Man, sometimes you get hit by random bullets while cloaking" or "I have to kill forcefields to pass through them while cloaked", not only without presenting a proposed solution, but implying counter-play is a bug rather than a feature.

Its fun to play against cloak because if they get spotted you have the energy advantage most of the time. Its fun to play against shield by trying to trick the other player into spending their energy first. Its fun to play against repair because you can cloak and use triple to instantly kill them while they're standing still, so on and so fourth.

Things that have no counterplay or no major disadvantages are not fun to play against. The game works like a RockPaperScissors in that way.

As it was already mentioned, this conversation is kind of going around in circles, I think a ton of things could benefit bitfighter balance-wise, like repair on allies, for instance, but this conversation has mostly been "Thing has counter, therfore bad". We'll never get a productive conversation this way, in my opinion.

But if a character or a ability in a game has more drawbacks then other characters or abilyts to the point where its not as effetive doesnt that make it worse then the others?

[Little_Apple]

Is paper bad because it loses to scissors? Just because some modules are disadvantaged by other modules doesn't make them ineffective. Most of the time it comes down to player skill and how effectively you use the tools given to you.

one disadvantage alone done not make a module or weapon worse BUT if there are multiple things hindering a weapon or ability effectiveness compared to other modules that inherently makes it worse.

Another indicator is how much is use as a general rule of thumb the more something is used the better or more fun it is in general a great example of this is sensor it tends to be very under used unless its specificly being used to counter cloak.

I am sorry if my previous point did not make this point clearer.