[SPLIT] Graphics Discussion

[Skybax]

Maybe leveling up could unlock different skins and stuff, like, not stuff that actually affected the gameplay, but just made your stuff unique. Like, you could make your phasers look all photon-blasterey instead of just purple spinning things. Or you could change the color of non-teamorientated parts of your ship. Just an idea.

[karamazovapy]

Bitfighter isn't a shitty iPhone app.

[ZoombeR]

yeah but _k, wouldn't you rather be commanding a small star image that has lazers and can shoot phasers than a triangleship?

[Little_Apple]

Bitfighter isn't a shitty iPhone app.

Not yet...

Meanwhile, I think the current energy tax for death is staying the same, suicide or homicide.

Dammit! That "tax" has had zero effect on my suiciding frequency because it applies for legitimate deaths as well. I see no value in it.

Maybe leveling up could unlock different skins and stuff, like, not stuff that actually affected the gameplay, but just made your stuff unique. Like, you could make your phasers look all photon-blasterey instead of just purple spinning things. Or you could change the color of non-teamorientated parts of your ship. Just an idea.

Bitfighter isn't a shitty iPhone app.

I don't see anything wrong with this. Bitfighter's retro graphics aren't for everyone... I'd love to be able to toggle on stuff like charred walls, wisps of smoke, shiny walls, new ship skins, etc.

[Little_Apple]

Bitfighter isn't a shitty iPhone app.

I don't see anything wrong with this. Bitfighter's retro graphics aren't for everyone... I'd love to be able to toggle on stuff like charred walls, wisps of smoke, shiny walls, new ship skins, etc.

The most convienent way to have new graphics I believe would be to make it sprite based. But from a recent talk with raptor, I know that would take a complete rewrite. So i don't think new graphics (sprite based graphic packs at least) are going to come around any time soon if at all. You would have to talk to ZoombeR sam686 and all the other developers to see if they are up for a full rewrite.

[sam686]

There have been a few ideas of mine in a past.
Smoke on skip explode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4z4lwCRSu4
Blue wall outline with dark blue wall fill may be hard to see. Not sure how to make a wall shiny in a 2D game.

Bitfighter currently have poor graphics, need to think of some ideas for better graphics. Mostly, the background is nothing with white dots. Maybe throw in some planets and moons in the background?

There have been a few ideas of mine in a past.
Smoke on skip explode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4z4lwCRSu4
Blue wall outline with dark blue wall fill may be hard to see. Not sure how to make a wall shiny in a 2D game.

Bitfighter currently have poor graphics, need to think of some ideas for better graphics. Mostly, the background is nothing with white dots. Maybe throw in some planets and moons in the background?

For now I think the graphics are fine. And I don't know how that would effect computers, because my computer is really bad and gets choppy a lot, and Bitfighter is like the only game that runs smoothly on it.

[bobdaduck]

Lets make the graphics engine so that it won't run on anything but an alienware.

That's sure to attract new players.

I can't believe you guys seriously want to "improve" the graphics. You are all grounded from making new ideas for forever.

[Skybax]

I didn't wanna make em necessarily "better," just the ability to change small sprites or colors. Uniqueness.

The skin thing might actually be kinda cool, except for the problem of not knowing whose team you're on.

[Little_Apple]

But a new skin feature would requier a total rewrite due to the current format. And I don't think any of the developers would be up for one.

You're probably right, but hey, it would be cool.

[karamazovapy]

This game is based on vector graphics. What does that mean? Well, if I'm reading the code right, this is how the ship gets "drawn" in the game:

  Code:

  // flameports...
   glColor(gray50, alpha);
   static F32 flamePortPoints[] = { -12.5,0, -12.5,10,  -12.5,10, -7.5,10,  7.5,10, 12.5,10,  12.5,10, 12.5,0 };
   renderVertexArray(flamePortPoints, ARRAYSIZE(flamePortPoints) / 2, GL_LINES);

   // colored insides
   glColor(c, alpha);
   glBegin(GL_LINE_LOOP);
      glVertex2f(-12, -13);
      glVertex2f(0, 22);
      glVertex2f(12, -13);
   glEnd();

   U32 lineCount = U32(14 * health);
   glBegin(GL_LINES);

   // health bar
   for(U32 i = 0; i < lineCount; i++)
   {
      S32 yo = i * 2;
      glVertex2f(-2, -11 + yo);   // front of ship
      glVertex2f(2, -11 + yo);    // back of ship
   }
   glEnd();

   // Grey outside part
   glColor4f(0.7,0.7,0.7, alpha);
   glBegin(GL_LINE_LOOP);
      glVertex2f(-20, -15);
      glVertex2f(0, 25);
      glVertex2f(20, -15);
   glEnd();

We don't use any textures, sprites, or raster graphics, which means we can't just drop in packs of alternate graphic files. We could, hypothetically, create alternate versions of the ships and weapons, but any replacement items have to be vector drawings like the one above...and I'm not sure if there's any incentive right now for the code wranglers to implement such things.

[karamazovapy]

I think the "enhanced" graphics of Z.A.P. were one of the primary contributors to that being a terrible game.

[Skybax]

About the vector graphics, I noticed that occasionally it stated a color, such as "grey." How hard would it be to change "grey" to "purple"? I'm not saying make entirely new pixel ships, just changing non-team-orientated colors on the ship. Like in Armegatron.

[bobdaduck]

The original Zap! slogan was "Don't let graphics get in the way of your gameplay"

a huge part of the games appeal, to me and others, is its retro feel. There isn't anything fancy, so its easy to tell exactly what is going on. Varying the brightness of the stars is about the only graphics change I'm willing to consider, though it could still have unintended consequences. (a mine being harder to see)

[karamazovapy]

It would be easy to change the specified colors in the code, but I'm not sure why we would do it, especially when choosing a random color for the neutral parts of the ship could look weird with team colors. We could do full redesigns for every item in the game...there just isn't a compelling reason for it.

[Skybax]

To give your ship a personal style?
I know at one time there were different graphics you could use for one of the weapons, was it burst? So that's code has already been used before. Why not make more of these for each weapon, and let the user choose? You could know exactly who's phasers you see up ahead if they're, say, a different color?
I'd even volunteer to make the graphics.

[karamazovapy]

The experimental burst graphics only applied to each player's individual client.

[Skybax]

Oh. So it's a lot more difficult to make it visible by others…

[ZoombeR]

I think both sides of this argument need to understand the importance of this situation. This is a matter of game and appeal, and quite honestly, there is absolutely no personalization of the gameplay besides using "relative" or "absolute" controls. Now yes, the slogan on zapthegame.com was in fact, "dont let graphics get in the way of gameplay", but have you thought to consider the fact graphics may be so out of the way, that its on the opposite polar extreme of this argument? I'm not trying to take a side here, but I do hear from some players in the game, including cloakdood who had returned for a quick second to play a few games saying the game needs different graphics. With that being said, we can't go too far either. Lets try to keep bit-fighter running nice and fast on this:



Now comes the part about all the ignorance in this section. If you would just look at sam's bitfighter modded branch code, here:

http://code.google.com/r/sam8641-bitfig ... ource/list

you can already see all the ideas he has added, including a three dimensional graphically rotated view of bitfighter, which uses about no extra power, and lets you play bitfighter, "without graphics getting in the way".

you could have easially viewed the 3d addition here
and I've posted a video on what it looks like here:
http://youtu.be/GQF9jz4UNCs

[watusimoto]

Background is something to think about.

I've experimented with different backgrounds, and there are some ideas I like. I haven't really explored this in depth, but we can use the same star generator to generate, say, random hexagons (which surprisingly look pretty cool). I think there will be some of this in the future. Whether it's a private setting, or something that gets associated with a level is yet to be determined.

How hard would it be to change "grey" to "purple"?

Depending on the details, not hard. Are you proposing changing the hardcolded color of an item that will be compiled into the game, or just the color you would see on your machine? I believe Sam added some settings to change the wall color in the INI, though I'm not sure if that has made it to a release or not. If not, you'll be able to do that in the next release.

BTW, if you have ideas for spiffing up the graphics, draw something in Photoshop and post it. But we probably won't consider anything that breaks the general theme of the game.

One final thought: I actually like the graphics as they are, but I'm a bit older than many of you, and I was raised playing vector graphics games like Asteroids and Battlezone and Star Castle and Star Trek and Star Wars, and I think there a real aesthetic that we're part of. Our graphics aren't crappy; their retro in a way that follows on from a real tradition.

[karamazovapy]

I have trouble imagining players who think the gameplay is fantastic but think the game is too "ugly" to play. I guess they could exist, but I've never worried much about those people. My next question is, if we offered configurable graphics options (such as we're able), would those minor alterations actually change the opinion of the graphics critics? Furthermore, would those players stick around once the novelty wore off?

To be completely honest, I don't care how much configurable graphics stuff is in the .ini if I don't have to deal with it. I might play with a random hexagon background or grid (although we'll have to change how cloak works if we switch to a non-black background), but I don't have a lot of interest in the other stuff...certainly not in "damage" effects or other random substitutions.

As I see it, our shared goal is to attract more players and make the game better. I think we're starting to broaden our player base (slowly but surely), and I don't think the graphics are our primary roadblock. I think it's just tough for a little game nobody knows about to get popular. How many of these games have you ever heard of? Tiny indie games with huge followings are the extreme exception, not the rule.

I think the "enhanced" graphics of Z.A.P. were one of the primary contributors to that being a terrible game.

... which is why we won't go full throttle.

This is a matter of game and appeal, and quite honestly, there is absolutely no personalization of the gameplay besides using "relative" or "absolute" controls.

TBH, limited personalization might be a bad thing. Give the user the option to break away from the default look! There is a reason why more and more modern games are supporting personalization of game skins, themes, or texture packs.

I have trouble imagining players who think the gameplay is fantastic but think the game is too "ugly" to play. I guess they could exist, but I've never worried much about those people. My next question is, if we offered configurable graphics options (such as we're able), would those minor alterations actually change the opinion of the graphics critics? Furthermore, would those players stick around once the novelty wore off?

You bring up some good points, and this need not be at the top of the todo list, but I think it should definitely be on the todo list. As for whether the modifications will be enough... that's going to be one of those "things" that you just have to try it and see.

[ZoombeR]

Maybe a good compromise is for customize-able client side changes.

[Skybax]

How hard would it be to change "grey" to "purple"?

Depending on the details, not hard. Are you proposing changing the hardcolded color of an item that will be compiled into the game, or just the color you would see on your machine? I believe Sam added some settings to change the wall color in the INI, though I'm not sure if that has made it to a release or not. If not, you'll be able to do that in the next release.

I'm proposing the ability for each client to change the color that everyone (including others) see's when they view his ship.

[karamazovapy]

I quit because with all the glowy crap, I couldn't see what was going on.

[Little_Apple]

But the glowy carp makes it better!

[karamazovapy]

But the glowy carp makes it better!

Only if you own a techno-themed chinese restaurant.

[Little_Apple]

That would be awesome right?

[ZoombeR]

That would be awesome right?

that would be the coolest place on the block i would have ever seend.

sure, but neither do rankings, right?

I'm a little confused about rankings. Are we talking about the scoreboard rankings that Zap! used to have, or military-style rankings that Skybax suggested?

(maybe a grayscale design on the ship?, which can easily change color).

Okay, I think there's been a lot of confusion surrounding modification of ship design, and allow me to clear that up. My original suggestion to modify ship design did not include changing color. Rather, changing the design.

The Bitfighter ship is very simple. A triangle, with a line down the middle and a flame on the end. That's practically it. My suggestion was to make this ship look a little more... sophisticated. I'm not entirely sure how to describe it so I'll let you use your imaginations. Just picture it looking a bit more robotic or futuristic, but not dramatically changing the color scheme.

[ZoombeR]

(maybe a grayscale design on the ship?, which can easily change color).

Okay, I think there's been a lot of confusion surrounding modification of ship design, and allow me to clear that up. My original suggestion to modify ship design did not include changing color. Rather, changing the design.

The Bitfighter ship is very simple. A triangle, with a line down the middle and a flame on the end. That's practically it. My suggestion was to make this ship look a little more... sophisticated. I'm not entirely sure how to describe it so I'll let you use your imaginations. Just picture it looking a bit more robotic or futuristic, but not dramatically changing the color scheme.

We're talking about the exact same thing, but interpreting each-others' posts differently. The only thing I meant by color, was that ship designs will always be the color of the team. Right now, there is a single red health bar line on the ship. but its not grey, its red, or whatever team the ship is on. A design of your own, would be much better off the color of your team, rather than grey on your ship right? I hope that clarifies my post. I think we're on the same page, even though you think we're not

[sam686]

Lets make the graphics engine so that it won't run on anything but an alienware.

I can make sure it runs fine from my year 2003 computer, I know my graphics hardware can handle 3D texture graphics, so does most computers today. Many games have complicated, and pretty graphics to attract new players, yet often have simple multiplayer game play to make it easy for new players.

Going farther into compatibility with old hardware, I could try my computer made in year 1998 (160 MB, AMD k6 533 MHz) which may be slow, but has hardware OpenGL acceleration. My old computer has my AGP Nvidia Vanta has limited 8 MB graphics memory. Hardware acceleraion makes drawing any graphics, including some texture graphics, won't hardly have any slow down.

If any extra, pretty graphics are added, they can be turned down or off in option menu, such as for old hardware or other reasons.

I guess space games like Bitfighter don't have many ways to improve graphics.

[ZoombeR]

Lets make the graphics engine so that it won't run on anything but an alienware.

I can make sure it runs fine from my year 2003 computer, I know my graphics hardware can handle 3D texture graphics, so does most computers today. Many games have complicated, and pretty graphics to attract new players, yet often have simple multiplayer game play to make it easy for new players.

Going farther into compatibility with old hardware, I could try my computer made in year 1998 (160 MB, AMD k6 533 MHz) which may be slow, but has hardware OpenGL acceleration. My old computer has my AGP Nvidia Vanta has limited 8 MB graphics memory. Hardware acceleraion makes drawing any graphics, including some texture graphics, won't hardly have any slow down.

If any extra, pretty graphics are added, they can be turned down or off in option menu, such as for old hardware or other reasons.

I guess space games like Bitfighter don't have many ways to improve graphics.

can you play bitfighter on that thing?

Bitfighter isn't a shitty iPhone app.

I don't see anything wrong with this. Bitfighter's retro graphics aren't for everyone... I'd love to be able to toggle on stuff like charred walls, wisps of smoke, shiny walls, new ship skins, etc.

The most convienent way to have new graphics I believe would be to make it sprite based. But from a recent talk with raptor, I know that would take a complete rewrite. So i don't think new graphics (sprite based graphic packs at least) are going to come around any time soon if at all. You would have to talk to ZoombeR sam686 and all the other developers to see if they are up for a full rewrite.

Hmmmm.... I guess all the graphics are generated by code. Yes sprites would need a whole rewrite. Who is up for it...

you could have easially viewed the 3d addition here
and I've posted a video on what it looks like here:
http://youtu.be/GQF9jz4UNCs

Nice! Is it actually generating and rendering a 3d model with opengl!

Background is something to think about.

I've experimented with different backgrounds, and there are some ideas I like. I haven't really explored this in depth, but we can use the same star generator to generate, say, random hexagons (which surprisingly look pretty cool). I think there will be some of this in the future. Whether it's a private setting, or something that gets associated with a level is yet to be determined.

How hard would it be to change "grey" to "purple"?

Depending on the details, not hard. Are you proposing changing the hardcolded color of an item that will be compiled into the game, or just the color you would see on your machine? I believe Sam added some settings to change the wall color in the INI, though I'm not sure if that has made it to a release or not. If not, you'll be able to do that in the next release.

BTW, if you have ideas for spiffing up the graphics, draw something in Photoshop and post it. But we probably won't consider anything that breaks the general theme of the game.

One final thought: I actually like the graphics as they are, but I'm a bit older than many of you, and I was raised playing vector graphics games like Asteroids and Battlezone and Star Castle and Star Trek and Star Wars, and I think there a real aesthetic that we're part of. Our graphics aren't crappy; their retro in a way that follows on from a real tradition.

YES! I love the vector graphics. They still need a little upgrading, though. But I am quite young. I guess you were more playing on like a Commodore VIC-20 and VIC-64