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IRC Log for 2012-08-15

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03:44:40raptorhi
03:44:46raptorsooo
03:44:51raptorwhat do we have left for 018?
03:44:59raptori know watusimoto is in feature creep...
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09:42:56raptoryou should see Unknowns new forum threads
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16:09:48raptor yawns
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18:23:19WatusimotoI like unknwn's post
18:23:22WatusimotoI replied
18:23:28raptori look
18:25:31raptorok
18:25:33raptorso
18:25:42raptori think i'm almost convinced to change sensor...
18:26:20raptordo you think we should do away with the double-click all together, and take his suggested changes for cloak?
18:28:20Watusimotowhat do we have for double-click? sensor, megaturbo,....
18:28:26raptoryep, that's it
18:28:55raptori think he's right about the complexity of it, but i don't just want to remove things to make a smaller feature set (i.e. dumbing down)
18:29:05Watusimotodoes anyone actually use sensor?
18:29:13raptori use
18:29:23Watusimotoyes, you are atypical :-)
18:29:40raptori've seen many more people use it since we've made a passive range increase
18:29:45raptorhelps a ton on bitmatch
18:29:52Watusimotothe problem with the double-click is not that it is complex, but that it's clunky
18:30:00raptoryes, is clunky
18:30:09raptorand i haven't heard a good solution yet..
18:30:15raptorother than removing it
18:30:22Watusimotoand hard to translate to android :-)
18:30:32raptorhehe
18:30:35raptorandroid...
18:31:04Watusimotohow useful do you think super thrust is?
18:31:17raptoruseful in soccer, for sure
18:31:26Watusimotoyes, soccer
18:31:38raptorbut other than that it's mostly used for friendly knocks around the map
18:31:52WatusimotoI'm inclined to remove it
18:32:07raptorso a neat idea, i think, but not very useful ultimately
18:32:08Watusimotowhat does active sensor give you now?
18:32:30raptoractive sensor = cloak detect + even larger view
18:32:30Watusimotovs. passive sensor?
18:32:53raptorpassive = view * 1.33
18:32:56raptorthat's all
18:33:08Watusimotolet's do it.
18:33:20raptorok
18:33:21Watusimotothat's not much reason to activate it
18:33:29Watusimotowhat we can do is this, however
18:33:31raptorpassive cloak
18:33:32raptor?
18:33:42Watusimotoall cloak is passive, active = spybug
18:33:49raptorok
18:33:51Watusimotothere is the upcoming mine overhaul
18:33:53raptorhow about view?
18:34:02Watusimotowhat do you think?
18:34:10raptori think the 1.33 is good
18:34:13Watusimotook
18:34:17Watusimotothen that's our answer
18:34:28raptorthe old 1.75 is a lot and doesn't feel very good when playing
18:34:36raptoractive = 1.75*view
18:34:55Watusimotobut when we do mines, we can make them not automatically detected by sensor, but sensor would increase chance of finding them
18:35:04raptoryes
18:35:12Watusimotowe could also convert cloaked players to a probabilistic detection if we wanted
18:35:18raptorlike instead of 2 ships radii away, maybe 4
18:35:21Watusimotousing the same mechansim as mines
18:35:32raptorinteresting idea...
18:35:51raptorlike a dice roll every second dependent on range
18:35:57raptorto see if you pick it up..
18:35:57Watusimotochance of detection = time / distance * constant (or t/d^2*c)
18:36:13Watusimotoonce detected mines are always seen
18:36:30raptorahh, time dependent
18:36:37Watusimotoso if you are sitting near a mine, you will likely detecte it
18:36:44Watusimotoif you whiz past on turbo, you might not
18:36:53raptori like it
18:37:04Watusimotoso every ship would have some mine detecting ability, sensor would increase it
18:37:22Watusimotoor maybe every tick you roll the dice, as you say
18:37:34Watusimotoand the time component would reflect the number of rolls you get
18:37:49raptoralso movement of cloaked object should be a factor
18:37:52Watusimotothat is, time would be handled explicitly
18:38:06raptorstanding still = greater (or lesser?) chance of detection
18:38:16Watusimotoexcept without sensor, cloaked ships would be impossible to see
18:38:30WatusimotoI think motion should make them easier to see
18:38:52Watusimotoeveryone thinks mines are kind of broken, far too easy to see
18:39:25raptoryeah i agree
18:39:27raptorok
18:39:44Watusimotoor maybe when you first sense mines, you get an indication there are mines about, but not sure where
18:39:46raptorso i can make the appropriate module changes for 018 (since I put the kinetic stuff there in the first place..)
18:39:53raptorunless we want to wait
18:39:53Watusimotook, great
18:39:57Watusimotono, let's do it
18:40:01raptorokey doke
18:40:05raptor fires up his IDE
18:40:12Watusimotothe less people play with it, the easier it is to remove them
18:40:13Watusimotoide????
18:40:15Watusimotowhich one?
18:40:24raptoreclipse-cpp
18:40:28Watusimotogreat
18:40:40WatusimotoI'm still plugging away at the lua/console stuff
18:40:42raptoryou didn't know that's what i use to code bitfighter?
18:40:49Watusimotofound a biggish bug in my reimplementation
18:40:51Watusimotoof lua
18:41:00raptorsquish it!
18:41:01WatusimotoI thought you used vi or something
18:41:11Watusimotoit's fixed, but it revealed a design flaw
18:41:23Watusimotowhich I'm still not sure how to fix
18:41:46Watusimotoso I'm trying to simplify the lua as much as possible, and document the currently very complex flow
18:41:54raptorok
18:42:11Watusimotoshould we discuss kinetic removal with sam?
18:42:20raptorprobably
18:43:12Watusimotoso happy Assention Day
18:43:16Watusimotowe have the dayoff
18:44:48raptorwait what?
18:45:16WatusimotoAssention Day!
18:45:20raptorisn't that the 40th day of easter?
18:45:25Watusimotothe day Mary ascended to heaven
18:45:26raptorit's more than 40, right?
18:45:37WatusimotoSorry, assumption day
18:45:46raptorahhh
18:45:49WatusimotoHappy assumption day
18:45:58Watusimotoremember, never assume... you make an ass out of you
18:46:11raptor(and me)
18:46:18Watusimotoexactly! :-)
18:46:44raptoris this a state holidy?
18:46:46raptorholiday
18:47:00Watusimotosure
18:47:06Watusimotothis is a god fearing country
18:49:03Watusimotoso I had an idea for the heat seeker visiual effects
18:49:29raptorgreat!
18:49:49raptorsam686, please come online so i can start my kinetic removal...
18:51:31Watusimotoradio waves, like this
18:51:32Watusimotohttp://www.clker.com/clipart-radio-waves-2.html
18:51:40Watusimotothat come out of the front of the seeker
18:51:46Watusimotobut are animated in the obvious fashion
18:52:09Watusimotowould that look good or dooky?
18:52:45Watusimotoor maybe lie this
18:52:46Watusimotohttp://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/11/st_jw_pitstops/
18:53:15raptori like the narrower ones
18:54:30Watusimotobut would the effect be good?
18:54:42raptori think it may be ok
18:55:21raptorwould we leave it red (with my detailed triangle)?
18:55:27Watusimotomy idea was to make it a spark type
18:55:37Watusimotoso we could just emit a wave and let it go a while
18:55:42Watusimotonot sure if that is smart or not
18:56:56raptorblink each of 3 waves in succession?
18:57:01raptor>
18:57:03raptor>>
18:57:04raptor>>>
18:57:09Watusimotomaybe
18:57:13Watusimotoprobably
18:57:21raptoror maybe
18:57:22raptor>
18:57:27raptor >
18:57:28raptor >
18:57:31Watusimotothe thing is as the thing turns, the waves should probably continue where they were going
18:57:43Watusimotoso it can't strictly be a rendering of the seeker
18:57:48raptorohhh
18:58:03raptorok, i thought it was a radio emitting device on the seeker
18:58:18raptorbut you mean just at the start of the shot
18:59:46Watusimotoyes
18:59:49Watusimotono, on the seeker
19:00:07WatusimotoI mean that if the seeker is arcing, the emitted waves should continue in the direction they were emitted
19:00:15Watusimotoand not somehow turn along with the seeker
19:01:12Watusimotoso if they were a spark, they could be emitted and forgotten
19:01:17raptoryes
19:13:26raptormy second-born is a natural walker!
19:13:40Watusimotoawesome!! how old?
19:13:42raptoroh man he's sticking a pen into the outlet...
19:13:54raptor10 months
19:14:00Watusimotohe'll be an engineer, if he lives!
19:14:22raptorhaha
19:16:19raptorgreat, now he's convinced my 3 year old to do the same
19:16:20raptorman
19:17:53raptori wonder what the resistance of a pencil is, and whether 125V will allow enough amperes to kill a 3 year old...
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19:37:31Watusimotographite conducts some electricty, I think, wood less so
19:37:53Watusimotoget an electric fence charger and give your kids a dose... that will cure them
19:38:18raptorgood idea!
19:38:26raptorit may work with the 3 year old..
19:38:39raptori grew up with one near a horse farm
19:38:59WatusimotoI tried to boobytrap my desk with one, to keep my brother out]
19:39:05raptorhaha
19:39:07Watusimotoended up zapping myself instead
19:39:20Watusimotoand it did hurt like crazy
19:39:33raptormy friends and I would hold hands and see how far down the chain we could still feel the charge
19:39:53raptorno one wanted to be holding the wire, but we still took turns...
19:40:13raptorit required a certain ability to shut down one's brain momentarily
19:40:30Watusimotosounds like fin!
19:40:35raptorbut usually couldn't handle more than 4 pulses...
19:41:07Watusimotomy friend took one of those 101 electronic projects kits for kids and built the "high voltage electric circuit"
19:41:37Watusimotoit hurt more than we thought it would, so that provided motivation to replace all the compnents with parts he pulled out of an ocilliscope
19:41:58raptorwhat
19:42:11Watusimotothat sucker hurt like crazy. We dared a friend to apply the voltage to his neck, and it sure made his body convulse
19:42:20raptorhahaha
19:42:23Watusimotohe was complaining of general pain for the next few days
19:42:34raptoroh man, i bet
19:42:50raptorto the neck!?
19:42:54Watusimotothough two EEs were involved in the rebuilding, I don't think either bothered figure out what that was putting out.
19:43:01Watusimotoyes, one blade to either side
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19:43:18WatusimotoI was standing by with a broom just in case it was needed
19:43:28Watusimotoit wasn't... he dropped that thing quick
19:43:41raptorsooo... you were younger than 6 right?
19:43:43raptor16
19:43:52raptoror so
19:44:06Watusimotomaybe a little older... 2nd or 3rd year of college
19:44:13Watusimotoprobably 2nd
19:44:18raptorha
19:44:24raptorhi sam686
19:44:35sam686hi
19:45:27Watusimotosam, you read the posting about simplification, right?
19:45:28raptorsam686 we're thinking that maybe Unknown's suggestions about sensor are a good ide
19:45:33raptoridea
19:45:45Watusimotowe wanted your input
19:46:02raptorwe're thinking of doing the following:
19:46:05Watusimotomy main motivation is to eliminate the double click
19:46:13Watusimotook, you talk, I'll shut up
19:46:15raptor1. remove turbo pulse
19:46:34raptor2. make sensor passively detect cloak
19:46:46raptor3. make active sensor be spybug
19:47:00raptor(remove the greater range view, keep passive increase)
19:47:15raptorso we're essentially wanting to remove the double-click, yes
19:47:26raptorthoughts, sam686?
19:49:29sam686possibly yes, as a double click spacebar or joystick button does sound kind of strange, as well as a possible accidental double click
19:50:03raptorok
19:50:33raptordo you think the pulse removal will be bad? is it useful?
19:50:56Watusimotothis pulse question is the biggest question in my mind
19:51:25raptormaybe it could be a completely different module?
19:52:11sam686the pulse that uses up ALL energy isn't very useful to me.. I often just use burst, and let it explode next to me with shield on to have similar effect at smaller energy cost..
19:53:07sam686also, burst don't work well with absolute keyboatd controls - can't aim exactly the way you want to go..
19:53:19raptoryeah..
19:53:28raptorit's looking less and less useful to me
19:55:13raptorunless we want to put extra effort into making it better somehow
19:57:15raptorok, i'll remove it...
19:57:27raptoryes? all agreed?
20:04:58sam686it looks like a few other player seem to not like that sprint burst a while ago.. http://bitfighter.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1430
20:06:20raptorWatusimoto: i'm thinking about coding a very simple client-side distance detection requirement for cloaked ships if you have sensor
20:06:45raptorlike maybe reduce the distance to which you can see it by maybe half the screen - so it doesn't completely negate cloak
20:08:49Watusimotothe problem with client side is it's hackable
20:08:56raptoryes
20:08:56Watusimoto(though maybe not with this crowd!)
20:09:15raptorbut it's no different than it is now..
20:09:25Watusimotowhat if it were server-side? if the ship is hidden, it is simply out of scope, and so position is not sent
20:09:51Watusimotothat's actually how it used to be -- I forced it to be server side so you could see the stars twinkle as the ship went by
20:09:53raptorwell, i was thinking of something quick and easy for 018, then we'd work on the server-side stuff as well as mines
20:09:59Watusimotosorry, forced it to client side
20:10:05raptorreally?
20:10:05Watusimotook, that makes sens
20:10:08Watusimotoyes
20:10:12Watusimotoloooooooooooong time ago
20:10:23raptorinteresting
20:10:40Watusimotook, do a quick cleint side fix, and we'll revisit when we do mines
20:10:54raptorok
20:15:36Little_Apple has joined
20:15:40Little_Applehelloo
20:15:52raptorhi
20:16:20Little_Applei wasted more time of my life making this http://sam686.maxhushahn.com/upload/DOMO.gif
20:16:37raptorha!
20:16:41Little_Apple:P
20:17:02Little_Applei really need a life.
20:19:57raptorgoodbye pulse
20:21:57Little_Applenuuu
20:21:58Little_Apple:c
20:22:23raptoryeah, it has been deemed superfluous
20:23:47Little_Apple:c
20:24:32Little_Apple Quit (Quit: Page closed)
20:47:20Watusimotoapple, if you want to do something productive, read this: http://www.briggs.net.nz/snake-wrangling-for-kids.html
20:47:30Watusimotoooops... he's gone
20:47:43raptorthat's a great idea!
20:50:31Watusimotomy kids are working their way through it
20:50:50Watusimotothey even fought over it one evening last week
20:51:07Watusimotobut it may have been less a function of the book than other factors
20:52:24raptorhaha
20:52:51raptorlike being brothers, you mean?
20:53:35raptorwhat do you think of Unknown's irritation with Core?
20:56:52Watusimotomaybe we could add a star castle-like cannon to the center to make it more exciting
20:57:07Watusimotoso a problem with merging all the Lua instances into one
20:57:10raptorthat shoots heat seekers!
20:57:14Watusimotoha
20:57:46WatusimotoI think that you can only register c++ functions globally, rather than in a particular lua environment
20:58:02Watusimotoenvironments, as you recall, are where each script's state is stored
20:58:27Watusimotoso we have some functions for displaying a menu for the plugins
20:58:38Watusimototheoretically, a robot could display that menu
21:00:40Watusimotocould be a robot defensive tactic... when you are about to kill it, it pops up a menu to distract you
21:00:44raptormenu? yo umean in the editor?
21:00:47raptoroh
21:00:49raptorhaha
21:01:01Watusimotoyes, liek the one when you press ctrl; in the editor
21:02:32Watusimotoam also having a weird bug
21:02:38Watusimotoin a script I can do this:
21:02:50WatusimotoLuaUtil:printToConsole(123)
21:02:58Watusimotobut from console, I need to do this:
21:03:05WatusimotoLuaUitl():printToConsole(123)
21:03:09Watusimotovery confusing
21:03:44raptorthats
21:03:46raptorweird
21:04:07Watusimotovery
21:06:02Watusimotoone possible solution to the shared registry might be to have 3 Ls... one for bots, one for levelgens, one for console
21:06:19Watusimotothen we could register different objects and functions with each
21:10:46Watusimotoand we might want to have some functions available to console that are not availabel to scripts, things that change the local user environment, for example
21:10:53Watusimotomany of the /commands come to mind
21:11:18raptorwould levelgen L be accessible in editor and in testing map?
21:11:38Watusimotoonly when running levelgens
21:11:49Watusimotowhich do run in editor and map
21:11:53Watusimotoso yes, I think so
21:12:10Watusimotoah but...
21:12:17Watusimotowhat if you run a levelgen from the console?
21:12:20Watusimotoargh!
21:13:06Watusimotoso here's one solution
21:13:20Watusimotocurrently, bots and levelgens use different code for subscribing to events
21:13:36Watusimotowe register 4 functions thusly:
21:13:37Watusimoto lua_register(L, "subscribe_bot", handleSubscribe<Robot>);
21:13:37Watusimoto lua_register(L, "unsubscribe_bot", handleUnsubscribe<Robot>);
21:13:37Watusimoto lua_register(L, "subscribe_levelgen", handleSubscribe<LuaLevelGenerator>);
21:13:37Watusimoto lua_register(L, "unsubscribe_levelgen", handleUnsubscribe<LuaLevelGenerator>);
21:14:02Watusimotothen we map the approriate ones to subscribe and unsubscribe
21:14:12Watusimotodepending on whether you are a bot or a levelgen
21:14:41Watusimotoso a bot could run the levelgen subscribe function, but is unlikely to accidentally
21:14:59Watusimotowe could make the names more obscure: __subscribe_bot__
21:15:01Watusimotofor example
21:15:17raptorunderscores
21:15:20raptoryuk
21:15:31Watusimotono one would see those
21:15:38Watusimotobot writers would just do subscribe()
21:16:00Watusimotoand lua would run a function in the bot's local environment that called __subscribe_bot__
21:16:08Watusimotoso it would be completely hidden
21:16:14raptorah ok
21:16:32raptorsam686: could you help me diagnose a missing pack/unpack bit with a diff?
21:16:33Watusimotoif you used the __ version, you could screw things up
21:16:44Watusimotobut you would deserve it!
21:17:05raptorha
21:18:02raptorsam686: here is my diff for removing the kinetic module component: http://sam686.maxhushahn.com/upload/removeKinetic.diff
21:18:14raptori'm one bit off in Ship::unpack, and I cannot figure it out...
21:18:24raptor(yet)
21:19:04raptorWatusimoto: have you reconsidered if the console is worth it to have?
21:19:21WatusimotoI want to make it work
21:19:26WatusimotoI remember now why I wanted it
21:19:30Watusimotofor debugging bots
21:19:33Watusimotoand such
21:19:42Watusimotobeing able to interact with a script would be very useful
21:19:46raptorok, that's useful - in-game debugging
21:20:03Watusimotowhich would again suggest a single L is required
21:20:33Watusimotowhat I'm doing now is good regardless, trying to simplify and clarify things a bit from my massive reworking
21:21:03sam686just got back from eating some food..
21:21:40raptormmmm food
21:22:20sam686for one thing, don't join servers when changing pack / unpack, only host..
21:22:31raptori didn't
21:22:33raptori only hosted
21:22:58raptorand i thought i moved the exact same bit count from both
21:23:06raptori've triple checked...
21:23:14raptor*removed
21:24:39sam686still looking at the changes in that patch..
21:25:00raptori modified move:: and ship::
21:32:01sam686so where is the if(stream->writeFlag(updateMask & ModuleMask)) // <=== THREE in packUpdate
21:32:08sam686in Ship::packUpdate
21:32:26raptorlooking again..
21:33:03raptor1527?
21:33:04sam686oh i see, it is ModuleActiveMask instead
21:33:26raptoroops, i mean 1455
21:33:28sam686the diff likes to place empty lines confusing me..
21:33:37raptoryeah
21:37:06LordDVG Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
21:38:30sam686i think I see the problem, if(!shouldWritePosition) it writes 4 bits of false, maybe it should be only 3
21:39:00raptorah ha!
21:39:03raptorgood catch!
21:39:41raptorthat was it!
21:39:43raptorthanks!
22:47:24Watusimotommm
22:47:33WatusimotoI found this in lua_helper_functions
22:47:34WatusimotoLuaUtil = LuaUtil() -- Could put a call to C++ random function in here...
22:47:53Watusimotomaybe that wasn't getting run, expaining the odd anomoly I saw before
22:48:53Watusimotobut I'm leaning towards killing luaUtil altogether
22:49:12Watusimotoall it does is provide a container for functions that might be better unassociated with any particular object
22:49:19Watusimotosuch as logprint
22:49:21raptorok
22:49:29Watusimotoand getMachineTime
22:49:38Watusimotowhy not just x = getMachineTime()
22:49:52Watusimotowhy x = LuaUtil:getMachineTime()
22:50:19Watusimotosince I prefer the first, I think we should just go with it
22:50:23raptorok
22:50:38Watusimotoif it works
22:52:45raptorok, pulse is gone
22:53:23raptori hope you don't have a messy merge
22:53:29raptornext up: sensor changes
23:06:03Watusimotouh...
23:06:12WatusimotoI have a LOT to merge
23:23:49Watusimotophew... mostly painless merge
23:25:26raptoroh good
23:28:34Watusimotook, here's the status
23:28:38Watusimotoit's beditme
23:28:43Watusimotoso I am going to bed
23:28:44WatusimotoI'
23:28:47Watusimotove
23:28:51Watusimotochecked in my latest
23:29:02WatusimotoEverything should work, more or less
23:29:17WatusimotoI have not checked any of the standard scripts to see if I broke anything
23:29:41Watusimotobut if anything refers to LuaUtil:blah, it will break (LuaUtil: can be stripped off)
23:30:15WatusimotoI doubt if much does
23:30:37Watusimotoas the most common functions were remapped (i.e. printToConsole was remapped to print)
23:30:43Watusimotorather e.g.
23:30:59Watusimotobut we'll see what happens
23:31:07Watusimotoconsole is working much better now
23:31:18Watusimotocan print goofball things without crashes
23:31:23Watusimotolike print(print)
23:31:34raptorok
23:31:42Watusimotoalmost replicates lua's standard print function
23:31:47Watusimotomostly because I copied the code
23:32:07Watusimotoexept it goes to the console rather than stdout
23:32:42WatusimotoLOTs more testing to be done, lots more cleanup, but I feel good about things at this stage
23:32:53Watusimotoeven though none of the big questions are answereed

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