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| 01:49:14 | | bobdaduck has joined |
| 01:50:34 | bobdaduck | All these people. |
| 01:50:46 | bobdaduck | Goodmorning, gentlepeople. |
| 01:51:29 | Nothing_Much | Hello |
| 01:54:57 | bobdaduck | I second the motion of adding trance music to the game. |
| 01:56:51 | Nothing_Much | including the tracks bf already has? or replacing some? |
| 01:56:59 | Nothing_Much | cuz I think the music's alright as it is |
| 01:57:21 | cloakdood | I disagree |
| 01:58:01 | | raptor has joined |
| 01:58:01 | | ChanServ sets mode +o raptor |
| 01:58:17 | bobdaduck | Adding new tracks |
| 01:58:20 | raptor | howdy folks |
| 01:58:25 | bobdaduck | I mean, I'm also running _k's track list |
| 01:58:36 | bobdaduck | Which works pretty well |
| 01:58:52 | bobdaduck | But, trance being my native genre I mostly just listen to it when playing anyway xD |
| 01:59:04 | raptor | half of our tracks are trance |
| 01:59:19 | raptor | at least according to the genre they were found under on modarchive.org |
| 02:00:53 | cloakdood | They were like soft trance |
| 02:01:00 | cloakdood | Needs more hard accents imop |
| 02:01:01 | bobdaduck | I don't know what tracks come with the game because I have _k's list in there too |
| 02:01:02 | cloakdood | imo |
| 02:01:06 | cloakdood | not bubbly stuff |
| 02:01:12 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 02:01:30 | cloakdood | "The game is fine how it is. Don't listen to this noob." |
| 02:01:30 | cloakdood | haha |
| 02:01:41 | cloakdood | I find that to be rather amusing |
| 02:01:44 | cloakdood | from the best player thread |
| 02:02:55 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 02:03:01 | raptor | ha, that thread was an offshoot from something else |
| 02:03:10 | bobdaduck | Keep in mind approx 3/4ths of all our players are 12 years old... |
| 02:03:51 | cloakdood | From what thread is it from? |
| 02:04:02 | cloakdood | bobdaduck: I used to be one of those |
| 02:04:05 | cloakdood | it's kind of embarrasing. |
| 02:04:09 | cloakdood | So is my spelling |
| 02:04:29 | bobdaduck | Yes, and when I first started playing I was a repair noob. We all have our shady pasts... |
| 02:04:41 | bobdaduck | Its from your suggestions thread, actually |
| 02:06:13 | cloakdood | lol @ quartz's balance suggestions |
| 02:06:47 | cloakdood | and bobdaduck managed to say what I said more eloquently. |
| 02:06:51 | cloakdood | I'm cool with that |
| 02:07:43 | bobdaduck | I did? |
| 02:07:59 | bobdaduck | I mean, I disagree with half of what you propose for the game, so that surprises me. |
| 02:09:00 | cloakdood | I mean railgun (seems like a sniper laser by your desc.) |
| 02:09:05 | cloakdood | shotgun replace triple |
| 02:09:17 | cloakdood | delete engineer |
| 02:09:25 | cloakdood | increased shield costs |
| 02:09:30 | cloakdood | etc... |
| 02:16:35 | raptor | desura has been approved |
| 02:16:42 | bobdaduck | Whoo! |
| 02:17:03 | raptor | maybe that means we go back on the front page? |
| 02:17:26 | cloakdood | Nice. |
| 02:18:00 | raptor | we charge Free.99 for the game |
| 02:18:04 | raptor | so not a bad price.. |
| 02:18:47 | cloakdood | Is that even ethical? |
| 02:18:57 | cloakdood | In reality, you really did not create much of the game |
| 02:19:01 | raptor | charging nothing? |
| 02:19:16 | raptor | in reality i did not create much of the game, but i've sure rewritten loads of it |
| 02:19:23 | cloakdood | Why not? |
| 02:19:37 | cloakdood | It's just |
| 02:19:41 | raptor | umm, maybe you didn't get the joke - free99 |
| 02:19:44 | cloakdood | i'd have a hard time earning money off of something |
| 02:19:54 | raptor | i.e. we give it way for free :) |
| 02:20:07 | raptor | *away |
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| 03:32:20 | kaen | doesn't look like we got bumped :/ |
| 03:32:40 | kaen | but we're still #2 on the linux games list, and #5 on the mac one. |
| 03:32:56 | kaen | under "new games" anyway |
| 03:35:41 | Nothing_Much | well since new games come out |
| 03:35:45 | Nothing_Much | they're like |
| 03:35:45 | Nothing_Much | you know |
| 03:35:46 | Nothing_Much | new |
| 03:36:22 | Nothing_Much | on the most popular, you're on the 4th page.. sorry |
| 03:36:46 | Nothing_Much | on mac games |
| 03:36:50 | Nothing_Much | darn messed that up |
| 03:38:03 | Nothing_Much | 7th or 8th page overall on most popular |
| 03:45:45 | Nothing_Much | oh and regarding updates, it doesn't bring y ou to the front page in the "new games" thing, but blogs will show up, such as an update to the game will show up on the community page |
| 03:46:38 | Nothing_Much | So make a new announcement for the newest version! |
| 03:47:26 | Nothing_Much | oh wait |
| 03:47:33 | Nothing_Much | correction, it shows up on the "games" page |
| 04:02:44 | kaen | I think we're in the top ~15% for most popular |
| 04:03:04 | kaen | not bad for a week (and a half?) |
| 04:03:39 | kaen | oh lol |
| 04:03:40 | kaen | almost a month |
| 04:03:43 | kaen | but still |
| 04:05:43 | Nothing_Much | not too bad? |
| 04:06:41 | kaen | I'd say so. |
| 04:07:14 | kaen | I'm still crossing my fingers that the desura gods will send us a new contributor |
| 04:09:05 | Nothing_Much | You should make an announcement for that :D |
| 04:57:39 | | bobdaduck has joined |
| 05:37:19 | bobdaduck | I found a bug for raptor... |
| 05:37:30 | kaen | why would you do that... |
| 05:38:24 | bobdaduck | IT WAS AN ACCIDENT |
| 05:38:35 | bobdaduck | NOT MY FAULT YOU GUYS TAUGHT ME HOW TO MAKE LEVELGENS |
| 05:39:27 | bobdaduck | Do all comments in lua have to be -- |
| 05:39:32 | bobdaduck | or is there a way to comment out blocks? |
| 05:39:55 | kaen | as far as I know, it only has -- |
| 05:40:03 | kaen | oh wait |
| 05:40:05 | kaen | --[[ |
| 05:40:09 | kaen | --]] |
| 05:40:16 | kaen | is a block comment |
| 05:41:31 | bobdaduck | excellent |
| 05:41:31 | bobdaduck | thanks |
| 05:41:38 | kaen | you bet |
| 05:41:55 | kaen | omg bitfighter.org is so slow ._. |
| 05:41:59 | kaen | at least when ssh'ing |
| 05:46:03 | kaen | oh man. I'm breaking stats while people are trying to use it... |
| 05:46:33 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 06:00:53 | kaen | now time for a massive db operation in live production \o/ |
| 06:00:53 | | cloakdood Quit (Quit: Page closed) |
| 06:01:05 | kaen | followed by an experimental trigger update |
| 06:01:09 | kaen | and then a strong drink. |
| 06:02:09 | kaen | http://www.bitfighter.org/stats/player.php?player=bobdaduck&alltime=yes |
| 06:02:28 | kaen | new engineering/destruction/distance columns are up |
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| 07:58:55 | Quartz | Yo kaen. Sent you the levels. |
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| 08:28:08 | kodaws | morning |
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| 13:07:39 | kaen | watusimoto, I was thinking about trying out some ELO stuff |
| 13:07:55 | kaen | but I couldn't figure how to handle unauthenticated players |
| 13:07:55 | watusimoto | I wish you luck, my friend! |
| 13:08:39 | watusimoto | so what is the question exactly -- how to rate a game with 2 registered players and 2 unregistered ones? |
| 13:08:51 | kaen | since their ELO can be manipulated by anybody, and anyone can use unauthenticated names, factoring in unauthed users allows a massive potential abuse |
| 13:09:09 | kaen | and yes, that |
| 13:09:43 | watusimoto | i.e. I play as watusimoto and also as chumpchange in order to have a stunning vicotry to raise my rating? |
| 13:09:50 | kaen | right |
| 13:10:02 | kaen | and maybe you pump up chumpchange's ELO against chumpchange.0 first |
| 13:10:18 | kaen | then you have a nice dummy account for padding stats for a while |
| 13:10:24 | watusimoto | well, I think it doesn't really make sense to rate anon players |
| 13:10:37 | watusimoto | especially chumpchange as so many people play with that nick |
| 13:10:45 | kaen | true, but in team games you need a team ELO |
| 13:11:00 | kaen | and you could potentially have a whole team of anons |
| 13:11:20 | kaen | rather a sticky problem. |
| 13:11:37 | watusimoto | first thing, is we have a notion of "official games", right? I would only consider rating games that those criteria (4 players min, of wich 2 must be registered) |
| 13:11:48 | kaen | sure. |
| 13:11:55 | watusimoto | but that does not address your anon team issue |
| 13:12:57 | watusimoto | what if we assigned unregistered players a default rating equivalent to a medium-skilled player? |
| 13:13:12 | kaen | hmm, good idea |
| 13:13:25 | kaen | that's probably the best we can do without making much more dubious assumptions |
| 13:13:59 | watusimoto | the reason I became interested in elo in the first place was not so much rating players over their career, but rather to make fairer teams from game-to-game (where rating anon players would be useful) |
| 13:14:10 | kaen | ahh |
| 13:14:11 | kaen | I see |
| 13:14:32 | kaen | and each kill counts for a victory? |
| 13:14:38 | kaen | that seems really straightforward. |
| 13:14:44 | watusimoto | maybe we could start anon players with a default rating, then rate them based on their performance during their session. but not save that rating once they disconnect |
| 13:14:54 | kaen | ! |
| 13:14:56 | kaen | perfect. |
| 13:15:32 | watusimoto | that would allow better team making, and, if a player played for several games, would allow their interactions with other players to be better characterized |
| 13:16:34 | watusimoto | my original thought was to rate games based on whether you were a member of a winning or losing team |
| 13:16:45 | kaen | mine too |
| 13:17:22 | watusimoto | using kills (i.e. dogfights) is an interesting idea because it 1) increases the number of interactions you can rate and 2) removes some of the dynamics of having good/lousy teammates |
| 13:18:16 | watusimoto | of course there is so much randomness in things -- you can enter an interaction wounded, have a 2-1 situation, be defending with the assistance of turrets, etc. |
| 13:19:21 | kaen | I'd say that falls under the inherent inaccuracy of quantifying skill |
| 13:19:34 | watusimoto | so it might make sense to rate games only, or it might be interesting to add a data point every time a player kills another, with the killer granted a victory and the defeatee granted a defeat |
| 13:19:58 | watusimoto | that would also simplify the elo problem, because now you've got a series of 1-1 matches |
| 13:20:11 | watusimoto | which is what it was originally designed for |
| 13:21:08 | watusimoto | it might be interesting to see how that metric performs compared to say a simple kill/death ratio |
| 13:21:39 | watusimoto | or the older metric of rating each player by the number of points they score / total points scored since they started playing |
| 13:22:46 | kaen | with that last suggestion, do you mean including both games AND dogfights in the calculation? |
| 13:22:51 | kaen | or did I misunderstand? |
| 13:23:25 | watusimoto | no, that last line I typed was the metric I first tried, which was replaced by k/d ratio for some reason that perhaps raptor remembers (but I don't) |
| 13:23:43 | watusimoto | these for the purpose of creating better teams |
| 13:23:49 | kaen | >>> so it might make sense to rate games only, or it might be interesting to add a data point every time a player kills another |
| 13:24:02 | watusimoto | ok |
| 13:24:05 | watusimoto | umm |
| 13:24:39 | watusimoto | I was just thinking aloud about different possible answers to the question of "what do we rate"? |
| 13:24:45 | kaen | oh alright :) |
| 13:25:00 | kaen | now I have some things to try. I'll report back with progress |
| 13:25:13 | watusimoto | yeah, that's probably best :-) |
| 13:25:18 | kaen | oh, also I don't think we can retroactively create ELOs using per-dogfight |
| 13:25:35 | kaen | because I don't think ELO calculations are commutative, and the data we have is a total per game |
| 13:25:35 | watusimoto | ah, you were thinking about mining the database |
| 13:25:39 | kaen | yes |
| 13:25:48 | watusimoto | ah, ok. That thought never ocurred to me |
| 13:26:05 | watusimoto | I always imagined it would be done on the server level, in real-time |
| 13:26:16 | kaen | me too |
| 13:26:17 | watusimoto | but certainly for team-based ratings, the database makes sense |
| 13:26:29 | watusimoto | because we have pretty deep historical data |
| 13:26:29 | kaen | but I thought it would be nice if we didn't start everybody at zero |
| 13:26:35 | kaen | yes. |
| 13:26:52 | watusimoto | that would also be good because we'd see pretty quickly if the ratings made any sense |
| 13:26:57 | kaen | exactly |
| 13:27:06 | watusimoto | ok, well that sounds like a good place to start then |
| 13:27:40 | watusimoto | dogfght level ratings would require either gathering new stats (which might be interesting in themselves) or doing in-game calculations |
| 13:28:17 | kaen | player vs. player stats could potentially be massive |
| 13:28:22 | watusimoto | no kidding |
| 13:28:31 | kaen | exponential, I think :x |
| 13:28:36 | watusimoto | at least! |
| 13:29:05 | watusimoto | they could be small records, but there would be a lot of them |
| 13:29:31 | watusimoto | well start with what we've got, and let's see what happens |
| 13:29:37 | kaen | sounds good |
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| 14:07:48 | bobdaduck | Watusimoto: I found a bug in lua for you and/or raptor |
| 14:07:54 | bobdaduck | Who should I give it to? |
| 14:10:14 | watusimoto | what is it? |
| 14:12:38 | bobdaduck | Affecting forcefields (removing them, changing their team, etc.) seems to only affect the force field projector, and not the beam. |
| 14:12:58 | bobdaduck | I removed a projector and the beam was still there, but not the little triangle part. |
| 14:13:49 | watusimoto | ok, sounds easy to fix |
| 14:13:56 | watusimoto | thanks, I'll add it to the list |
| 14:18:03 | bobdaduck | I mean, obviously that could be a useful mechanic that I could work with, but its obviously not intended functionality xD |
| 14:18:45 | watusimoto | nope, we'll fix it |
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| 18:28:18 | bobdaduck | 10 servers |
| 18:28:21 | bobdaduck | 1 player online |
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| 19:26:38 | raptor | heh |
| 19:26:42 | raptor | coboys cowgirls cows |
| 19:33:21 | bobdaduck | lol |
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| 19:34:57 | raptor | of course i'm a cow.. |
| 19:38:32 | bobdaduck | Raptor can you sticky the discussion thread? |
| 19:38:42 | raptor | ok |
| 19:39:42 | raptor | done |
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| 19:59:21 | raptor | hi |
| 19:59:29 | Watusimoto | hi |
| 19:59:35 | Watusimoto | so what is /hideplayer? |
| 19:59:55 | raptor | apparently we have a whole load of commands you can issue in global chat |
| 20:00:05 | bobdaduck | Should be like a global mute |
| 20:00:07 | raptor | if you're one of watusimoto, raptor, sam686, kaen |
| 20:00:15 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 20:00:19 | raptor | master.cpp:1412 is where the fun begins |
| 20:00:41 | raptor | also i found out you can do private messages in global chat like so: /bobdaduck message for you |
| 20:00:59 | Watusimoto | this I coded looong ago. it was the first "chat cmd" |
| 20:01:07 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 20:01:15 | Watusimoto | though arguably it should now be /pm |
| 20:01:19 | Watusimoto | if we want it at all |
| 20:01:38 | bobdaduck | it would be useful. |
| 20:02:01 | bobdaduck | I think admins should be able to mute players on their server |
| 20:02:11 | raptor | they can |
| 20:02:36 | bobdaduck | So that the person can't talk or so that the admin doesn't see them talking? |
| 20:03:01 | raptor | you should look at the instructions! |
| 20:03:01 | Watusimoto | so /hideplayer is a mute cmd |
| 20:03:02 | raptor | :) |
| 20:03:11 | raptor | its /gmute |
| 20:03:15 | raptor | for global mute |
| 20:03:20 | raptor | they are silenced and don't know it |
| 20:03:22 | Watusimoto | hmmmm |
| 20:03:24 | bobdaduck | Hm, okay |
| 20:03:29 | raptor | on game servers |
| 20:03:34 | raptor | it's a great troll tool |
| 20:03:35 | Watusimoto | does anyone ever acutally use f5 chat? |
| 20:03:44 | kaen | definitely |
| 20:03:45 | bobdaduck | I do |
| 20:03:46 | raptor | Watusimoto: yes |
| 20:03:49 | Watusimoto | ok |
| 20:03:54 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 20:03:57 | Watusimoto | I don't think I ever have |
| 20:04:06 | raptor | every once in a while i find more people just gabbing in global chat than in a game |
| 20:04:15 | Watusimoto | so maybe we should try to standardize the /cmds |
| 20:04:38 | raptor | so /hideplayer is an interesting one |
| 20:04:40 | Watusimoto | and put them in the help somewhere |
| 20:05:02 | raptor | not only does it not relay chat for the player, but also hides them at the bottom of global chat and the JSON list |
| 20:05:08 | Watusimoto | we could (maybe) incorporate them into the huge /cmd structure we maintain |
| 20:05:20 | Watusimoto | and the json list? |
| 20:05:23 | raptor | the master commands? |
| 20:05:26 | raptor | yes |
| 20:05:35 | raptor | these are master commands only, that i'm talking about |
| 20:05:41 | Watusimoto | (maybe -- would help with standardization) |
| 20:05:49 | Watusimoto | I understand |
| 20:06:16 | Watusimoto | who can issue /hideplayer? |
| 20:06:41 | bobdaduck | wat kan rapt and sam |
| 20:06:49 | raptor | there is an admin list maintained in the master.ini |
| 20:06:56 | Watusimoto | interesting |
| 20:07:20 | Watusimoto | well, it sounds like /hideplayer might be useful but do too much |
| 20:07:34 | raptor | i think it all started when CleverBot decided sam686 was to be his troll target |
| 20:07:47 | raptor | and sam686 took measures.. |
| 20:07:49 | bobdaduck | That happened? |
| 20:07:52 | raptor | yeah |
| 20:07:57 | bobdaduck | I missed that... |
| 20:08:28 | bobdaduck | What'd he do? |
| 20:08:37 | raptor | make sam686 his target |
| 20:08:49 | bobdaduck | How so? |
| 20:08:59 | raptor | i think he started using the JSON list to make fun of sam686 with 5 or 6 clients on at once |
| 20:09:43 | bobdaduck | Thewhat |
| 20:10:14 | raptor | JSON list == the 'online players' list on the website |
| 20:10:58 | bobdaduck | okay |
| 20:15:06 | Watusimoto | so you asked if we still need it |
| 20:15:11 | Watusimoto | what do you think? |
| 20:15:22 | raptor | hmmm |
| 20:15:30 | Watusimoto | maybe we should rename it nuke player |
| 20:15:41 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 20:15:53 | raptor | yeah, needs a rename - maybe separate the the muting part from it? |
| 20:16:00 | Watusimoto | why would anyone start trolling an admin? |
| 20:16:05 | bobdaduck | Well Opti has sure been crying out for some rules and a method to enforce them... |
| 20:16:07 | raptor | because... cleverbot |
| 20:16:08 | Watusimoto | maybe, yes |
| 20:16:22 | Watusimoto | ok, well i don;t really know him... but still rather dumb |
| 20:16:50 | Watusimoto | or maybe we could have /gmute <severity> |
| 20:17:00 | raptor | hmm |
| 20:17:05 | Watusimoto | /gmute cleverbot |
| 20:17:12 | Watusimoto | /gmute json cleverbot |
| 20:17:25 | Watusimoto | /gmute playerlist cleverbot |
| 20:17:28 | Watusimoto | soemthing like that |
| 20:17:28 | raptor | i mean, people can just log on as a different name - which is why sam686 then proceeded to code /hideIP |
| 20:17:40 | Watusimoto | what does that do? |
| 20:17:54 | raptor | same as hideplayer, but for the entire IP address |
| 20:17:56 | Watusimoto | same thing but by ip? |
| 20:17:57 | Watusimoto | ok |
| 20:18:13 | raptor | again, i think that is why these commands came about.. |
| 20:18:13 | Watusimoto | /gmute ip <addr> |
| 20:18:23 | Watusimoto | /gmute json ip <addr> |
| 20:18:24 | Watusimoto | ?? |
| 20:18:50 | raptor | i like /gmute <name or IP> and /nuke <name or IP> |
| 20:18:50 | Watusimoto | we'd probably need a /help gmute |
| 20:19:04 | Watusimoto | what if I'm playing with 192.168.1.1 |
| 20:19:09 | Watusimoto | as my username |
| 20:19:33 | raptor | the major assumption is that admins won't do anything dumb... :) |
| 20:19:39 | raptor | but maybe that is too much of an assumption? |
| 20:19:56 | Watusimoto | dumb, probably. malicsious, I think we're safe for the moment |
| 20:20:08 | raptor | anyways what was funny was that i did /hideplayer on someone yesterday |
| 20:20:17 | Watusimoto | what do you mean by dumb? and why? |
| 20:20:19 | raptor | and it nuked everyone else instead |
| 20:20:32 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 20:21:37 | raptor | dumb? maybe we're thinking of different things |
| 20:21:50 | raptor | : /hideip 127.0.0.1 |
| 20:21:54 | raptor | win! |
| 20:22:17 | kaen | wouldn't that be harmless? |
| 20:22:24 | raptor | probably |
| 20:22:26 | kaen | unless bitfighter.org tries to connect to itself. |
| 20:22:35 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 20:22:39 | kaen | and then only if it does so through loopback |
| 20:22:56 | raptor | actually, i think there is a minor bug in TNL somewhere... |
| 20:22:57 | Watusimoto | how long do these /hide things last? |
| 20:23:10 | raptor | until you reconnect to master, i think |
| 20:23:27 | Watusimoto | maybe they should have a 1 or 4 hour timeout |
| 20:23:33 | raptor | ad least for /hideplayer |
| 20:23:42 | raptor | : /hideip, i'm not sure |
| 20:23:45 | Watusimoto | oh, so it resets when cleverbot reconnects to master? |
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| 20:24:02 | raptor | : /hideplayer was the only one i tested |
| 20:24:14 | raptor | and that was the behavior |
| 20:24:21 | raptor | which didn't seem too hard to get around |
| 20:24:39 | Watusimoto | not at all |
| 20:25:05 | raptor | i think /hideip might stay until you restart master |
| 20:28:24 | Watusimoto | that should also probably have a timeout |
| 20:32:29 | raptor | well, it's been 2 days and so far no real bugs... (other than bobdaduck's API stress testing ones..) |
| 20:35:01 | raptor | usually footloose find a bug within a day |
| 20:35:03 | raptor | *finds |
| 20:35:38 | raptor | oh Watusimoto, did you see I put up a standalone build: https://code.google.com/p/bitfighter/downloads/list |
| 20:36:32 | Watusimoto | I saw that |
| 20:36:33 | Watusimoto | good |
| 20:36:48 | Watusimoto | I was going to suggest we call it portable, not standalone, as that;s the standard terminology |
| 20:37:00 | raptor | ok, i'll change it |
| 20:37:07 | Watusimoto | but good job |
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| 20:37:16 | Watusimoto | how hard was it building for desura this time around? |
| 20:38:36 | raptor | only slightly easier, but I now have a script that takes to DEBs and generates the entire directory structure needed |
| 20:38:44 | raptor | so next time it should be much easier |
| 20:39:26 | | bobdaduck Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 20:45:26 | Watusimoto | and for windows? |
| 20:46:13 | raptor | windows was easy, just make the portable build and upload as MCF |
| 20:51:31 | raptor | Little_Apple brought up the idea of porting to Nintendo 3DS |
| 20:52:08 | bobdaduck_ | lawl |
| 20:54:00 | raptor | i wonder if SDL2 supports taht.. |
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| 20:54:27 | raptor | looks like no: http://buildbot.libsdl.org/builders |
| 20:54:38 | raptor | but there was a 'DS' port for SDL 1.2 |
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| 21:02:21 | Watusimoto | how can we support a platform none of us has? |
| 21:02:34 | bobdaduck_ | rofl |
| 21:02:43 | raptor | emulation! |
| 21:02:49 | raptor | (I support OSX...) |
| 21:02:54 | | bobdaduck_ is now known as bobdaduck |
| 21:02:59 | raptor | but we should probably do android/iOS first? |
| 21:03:02 | raptor | (if possible) |
| 21:03:18 | bobdaduck | There's probably a lot more profitability to android/iOS |
| 21:03:24 | bobdaduck | Nintendo is kind of flopping right now. |
| 21:03:50 | raptor | profitability == more players, right? |
| 21:04:12 | bobdaduck | Right. |
| 21:04:54 | kaen | so readline is even more of a hassle to hook up than I thought |
| 21:05:08 | raptor | yeah... that has been our diagnosis.. |
| 21:05:24 | kaen | putting aside the fact that it won't build for windows as shipped, it also doesn't have an easy way wiring it to handle async io |
| 21:05:49 | raptor | oh yeah, the windows issue.. |
| 21:06:02 | kaen | it *really* wants to block and read from STDIN |
| 21:06:50 | kaen | and then also there are many call sites that would have to be rewired (because of the way Events bubble through the UI, especially textInput) |
| 21:07:35 | kaen | apparently whatever handles the F5 chat does not handle the server list chat |
| 21:07:45 | raptor | nope |
| 21:07:55 | kaen | that was unexpected... |
| 21:08:13 | kaen | so anyway, I'm throwing my hands up regarding readline. |
| 21:08:21 | raptor | welcome to the club :) |
| 21:08:38 | kaen | have you guys actually tried hooking it up before? |
| 21:08:43 | kaen | or was I the first fool? |
| 21:09:05 | raptor | we never reached code after seeing the problems you just enumerated |
| 21:09:19 | kaen | it has an alternate, callback-based interface |
| 21:09:21 | kaen | ostensibly |
| 21:09:40 | kaen | but using it does not override its block-and-read behavior without much work |
| 21:09:53 | raptor | it would be gnarly to integrate |
| 21:10:36 | kaen | I got it to the point that it reads text (if you type it into the terminal...) but I gave up when I realized I'd have to rewrite most of the line input stuff to pass along modifier codes. |
| 21:10:51 | raptor | blech |
| 21:10:56 | kaen | so anyway, you convinced me. |
| 21:11:07 | Watusimoto | I tried readline, but did not get as far |
| 21:11:07 | raptor | and i didn't even have to try! |
| 21:11:33 | raptor | readline does its own convincing |
| 21:11:45 | Watusimoto | maybe there's an alterate to readline we could use? |
| 21:12:37 | kaen | I think the distance to a complete-enough readline implementation from where we are is less than what it would take to wire in another library |
| 21:12:40 | Watusimoto | http://thrysoee.dk/editline/ |
| 21:12:44 | kaen | I think we'd be better off refactoring |
| 21:12:55 | kaen | editline depends on curses, afaik |
| 21:13:05 | Watusimoto | curses! |
| 21:13:50 | raptor | curses! |
| 21:13:55 | raptor | (why are we cursing?) |
| 21:14:25 | kaen | I mean, what's left? Home/end, a reusable history component, and maybe some intra-line editing stuff like ^W? |
| 21:14:49 | raptor | yeah, our own implementation is pretty advanced as is.. |
| 21:14:50 | kaen | everything else exists, although it is somewhat duct-taped together |
| 21:15:06 | raptor | and pegaloca! |
| 21:15:26 | Watusimoto | I'm cursing that editline uses curses |
| 21:15:41 | raptor | maybe bitfighter could use aalib! |
| 21:16:05 | Watusimoto | perfect! |
| 21:16:15 | raptor | actually that would be hilarious... |
| 21:16:35 | kaen | best INI option ever |
| 21:16:43 | raptor | we'd have to abstract the graphics layer |
| 21:16:46 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 21:16:58 | kaen | I don't think so. we could pass the buffer contents as an image |
| 21:16:58 | raptor | which koda wants us to do for some reason.. |
| 21:17:05 | raptor | really?? |
| 21:17:14 | kaen | if aalib takes images |
| 21:17:24 | kaen | SDL makes it easy to create bitmaps from buffers |
| 21:17:32 | raptor | i actually haven't studied it much outside of its existence |
| 21:17:44 | kaen | and ogl has render to texture extensions, even |
| 21:18:21 | kaen | of course, processing each frame as an image would probably give you atrocious performance |
| 21:18:54 | raptor | but think of the ascii art! |
| 21:19:03 | raptor | screenshots would be *amazing* |
| 21:19:07 | bobdaduck | rofl |
| 21:19:28 | kaen | I imagine aalib basically does creative OCR |
| 21:20:05 | Watusimoto | You saw this: |
| 21:20:06 | Watusimoto | http://www.delorie.com/gnu/docs/readline/rlman_41.html |
| 21:20:11 | Watusimoto | (I'm guessing) |
| 21:20:20 | kaen | yep |
| 21:20:23 | Watusimoto | it seems lame that you can't feed it actual keys |
| 21:20:30 | Watusimoto | you have to just tell it to fetch something |
| 21:20:40 | raptor | it's GNU |
| 21:20:50 | raptor | it does it the only One True Way |
| 21:21:06 | kaen | it's beautiful if you're writing a command-line system utility or something |
| 21:21:18 | Watusimoto | yes |
| 21:21:20 | kaen | it'd let you use pipes, files, whatever you want |
| 21:21:31 | kaen | but it's just awful for real-time graphical stuff |
| 21:21:58 | Watusimoto | we need an alternative alternative interface |
| 21:22:05 | Watusimoto | where we can feed it keystrokes |
| 21:22:53 | kaen | well, my plan was to modify character values via bitwise operations, which is what readline type stuff accepts by default |
| 21:23:07 | Watusimoto | that page I linked above says this: |
| 21:23:10 | Watusimoto | "which will read the next character from the current input source" |
| 21:23:24 | Watusimoto | any idea if we can define our own input source? |
| 21:23:25 | kaen | i.e. ctrl+g is the hexcode of g bitwise anded with 0b00111111 |
| 21:23:37 | kaen | yeah, you just make a pipe() |
| 21:23:45 | kaen | and set rl_instream and rl_outstream |
| 21:23:49 | Watusimoto | so user presses a key, say "g", and we stick that in a buffer and tell readline to read it |
| 21:24:17 | kaen | yes, that's what I was doing via fprintf |
| 21:24:27 | kaen | but still readline would block |
| 21:24:32 | kaen | even after fflush |
| 21:24:36 | Watusimoto | even if that key was waiting there? |
| 21:24:49 | kaen | yes, but that was a failing on my part most likely |
| 21:24:59 | Watusimoto | rl_callback_read_char suggests it just reads and returns |
| 21:25:13 | kaen | it invokes some other internal stuff when that happens |
| 21:25:30 | kaen | rl_internal_read_char, rl_redisplay |
| 21:25:31 | Watusimoto | stuff that somehow blocks? |
| 21:25:45 | raptor | i'm feeling like our efforts should be put elsewhere... like the android port or something |
| 21:25:49 | raptor | or aalib |
| 21:25:58 | raptor | :) |
| 21:26:29 | Watusimoto | but you have to admit that a good cmd line would be... good |
| 21:26:34 | kaen | yes. |
| 21:26:42 | kaen | I want it so bad... |
| 21:26:45 | Watusimoto | :-) |
| 21:26:50 | raptor | but we're command line users |
| 21:26:56 | Watusimoto | but I veto any enabling of emacs commands |
| 21:26:58 | raptor | i mean, tab-complete in a game? that's amazing! |
| 21:27:11 | raptor | (i've only played old games..) |
| 21:27:17 | kaen | :) |
| 21:28:04 | kaen | the main problem with the callback interface that I encountered is that it skips some terminal settings which readline() proper takes care of |
| 21:28:16 | kaen | things like canonical interpretation and keypress timeout, at least |
| 21:28:37 | kaen | so I'd have to learn about all those goofy termcap functions and settings |
| 21:28:54 | kaen | and then properly configure whatever fd we use for the buffer |
| 21:29:21 | kaen | or overcome it programatically and pray that it's portable |
| 21:31:50 | raptor | or |
| 21:31:52 | raptor | aalib! |
| 21:31:59 | raptor | ok, i'll shut up |
| 21:33:48 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 21:38:15 | raptor | what would be our next major projects? Lua52, then? |
| 21:39:00 | raptor | GUI reorganization? |
| 21:39:11 | raptor | (for the launch screen not to prompt you) |
| 21:41:21 | Watusimoto | testing! |
| 21:41:31 | raptor | unit tests? |
| 21:41:32 | Watusimoto | unit test, component test, smoke test |
| 21:41:39 | Watusimoto | testing framework |
| 21:41:43 | raptor | fuzzers! |
| 21:42:11 | Watusimoto | I'm sort of joking, but I would like to make some testing possible |
| 21:42:33 | Watusimoto | and that means getting all render code into a UI* or related file |
| 21:42:37 | Watusimoto | and out of clientGame |
| 21:43:06 | Watusimoto | we also have tons if ideas in google code |
| 21:43:06 | raptor | multithreading the sound/video/network ? |
| 21:43:15 | Watusimoto | is that needed? |
| 21:43:21 | raptor | no |
| 21:43:29 | raptor | unless we want 10000 FPS! |
| 21:43:29 | Watusimoto | also level library and music library |
| 21:43:35 | Watusimoto | great! |
| 21:43:36 | raptor | ah level database |
| 21:43:48 | Watusimoto | so... what sounds most fun? |
| 21:45:02 | bobdaduck | I vote for GUI reorg and similar to that, player profile pages in-game. |
| 21:46:24 | Watusimoto | what would player profiles show? |
| 21:46:30 | Watusimoto | and how would you access them? |
| 21:47:06 | bobdaduck | From the main menu, and it would pull stats pretty much directly from kaens individual player-stats list |
| 21:47:27 | bobdaduck | But if we continue to have badges then it is a REQUIREMENT that we give the players some way of choosing which badges to show. |
| 21:47:40 | bobdaduck | This could be done from an individual player-profile page. |
| 21:48:31 | bobdaduck | I'd really like to just full out thread kaens stats into the game, but that might be a little big. |
| 21:50:03 | kaen | pulling from the player_mv is an interesting idea. |
| 21:50:12 | kaen | one I hadn't thought of |
| 21:50:39 | kaen | but updating an in-game page wouldn't be as simple as updating web pages |
| 21:51:38 | kaen | and it would require another UI, as well an RPC, mapping code, and some additional SQL logic in master |
| 21:51:52 | kaen | and all would have to be updated (along with the web pages) any time we make a change. |
| 21:52:06 | kaen | so if we do it, we should wait until the stats stuff settles a bit. |
| 21:52:09 | koda | and hellp |
| 21:52:11 | koda | and hello |
| 21:52:18 | kaen | hello |
| 21:52:21 | Watusimoto | hi |
| 21:52:23 | raptor | hello |
| 21:52:24 | koda | i might have missed previous pings 'cos i left my pc on =_= |
| 21:52:38 | Watusimoto | creating the ui isn't hard at all... only tedious |
| 21:52:50 | koda | so while i have everyone's attention |
| 21:52:54 | koda | did you notice this repo? |
| 21:52:55 | koda | https://github.com/mrozbarry/bitfighter-experiments |
| 21:53:03 | kaen | it's beard! |
| 21:53:04 | raptor | oh, i had a question for you koda, what was your reasoning behind suggesting we abstract the rendering layer? |
| 21:53:25 | raptor | oh, haha, beard's repo! |
| 21:53:34 | Watusimoto | koda: that was an attempt at a massive rewrite of bitfighter |
| 21:53:47 | Watusimoto | it was an attempt to do too much at one time... and failed |
| 21:53:51 | koda | beard? |
| 21:54:05 | Watusimoto | some dude |
| 21:54:09 | raptor | a very enthusiastic developer that showed up once |
| 21:54:16 | kaen | a strange man with big dreams and a short attention span. |
| 21:54:23 | raptor | he's on teh SDL mailing list |
| 21:54:28 | raptor | responds a lot actually |
| 21:54:32 | raptor | 'alex barry' |
| 21:54:33 | raptor | i think |
| 21:54:36 | Watusimoto | it's too bad he didn't focus on smaller chunks |
| 21:54:51 | Watusimoto | nice guy though |
| 21:55:25 | raptor | yes |
| 21:55:42 | koda | that's one of the authors of SDL :p |
| 21:55:51 | raptor | he is? |
| 21:56:02 | koda | he was once at the gsoc summit |
| 21:56:06 | raptor | can't be... |
| 21:56:18 | raptor | huh |
| 21:57:07 | koda | i hoped it was a still active repo |
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| 21:58:58 | Watusimoto | alas, no |
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| 22:35:29 | bobdaduck | kaen |
| 22:35:35 | kaen | yes. |
| 22:35:42 | bobdaduck | Footloose has requested that I bug you to add thumbs ups to forum posts. |
| 22:35:58 | kaen | consider me bugged. |
| 22:36:21 | bobdaduck | Okay well |
| 22:36:24 | bobdaduck | My work here is done. |
| 22:36:27 | bobdaduck | Time to head home! |
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| 23:16:34 | Watusimoto | interesting patch... try it full screen |
| 23:16:36 | Watusimoto | http://pastebin.com/77Exp4rv |
| 23:21:27 | kaen | looks god awful without alpha blending (as in my case) |
| 23:21:48 | kaen | but a cool patch nonetheless |
| 23:22:07 | kaen | orbitron is a pretty popular font for futuristic action games, too |
| 23:25:48 | Watusimoto | I don't want to use it as the main game font, just in some selected places |
| 23:25:56 | Watusimoto | but yes, it does look pretty terrible! |
| 23:29:57 | Watusimoto | If I could collapse the outline into a single stroke, it might look better |
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